The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast

I am so glad to bring Dr. Emma Katz back to the show. She is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University and one of the world's leading experts on coercive control. She is the author of Coercive Control in Children's and Mothers' Lives and writes the Substack Decoding Coercive Control, where she makes this research clear to process and digest for anyone navigating it in real life.

Today we are focused on children and their lived experience of coercive control, and what actually supports them when one parent is trying to protect them inside constrained systems.

In this conversation we explore what children are actually experiencing as co-victims and co-survivors of coercive control, both inside the home and after separation, when the tactics don't stop, they just shift. We get into what protective mothers can actually do to support their kids, why your own survival is already a road map, and how to talk to your children about what is happening in a way that helps them make sense of it without putting them in more danger. We also go deep on family court and why court-ordered systemic therapy in a coercive control situation is, in Emma's words, a match made in hell.

What you'll hear about in this episode:

How coercive control intensifies for children after separation, and what they are experiencing when they move between homes (2:34)
How to talk to your children about abuse in a way that is ongoing, depersonalized, and actually safe (27:06)
Family court and systemic therapy: how to navigate it strategically when you have no choice (35:36)
The changes Emma is seeing in family court in the UK, why the US is moving in the opposite direction, and what that means for protective mothers (44:20)
Final advice for protective mothers on building the anti-coercive control environment in your own home, and why even when you cannot fix what is happening, making your child feel heard is already so much (50:42)

✨ If you'd like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here.

Learn more about Dr. Emma Katz

Dr Emma Katz is Associate Professor at Durham University. She is an award-winning expert in domestic abuse and coercive control, whose work has influenced policy and professional practice in the UK and globally.

Dr Katz's book, Coercive Control in Children's and Mothers' Lives (published in 2022 by Oxford University Press) is described by Professor Evan Stark as a 'pioneering work that will change how we understand and respond to children's experience of domestic abuse'.

Follow Dr Katz on Substack to receive her popular blog Decoding Coercive Control with Dr Emma Katz.

Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate's Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 

Connect with Dr. Katz:
Dr. Katz's Substack: Decoding Coercive Control 
Dr. Katz on Instagram
Dr. Katz on LinkedIn
Dr. Katz on Facebook
Dr. Katz on YouTube

Books Mentioned:

Floss and the Boss
Luna Little Legs
Talking to My Mum: A Picture Workbook Workers, Mothers, Children Affected by Domestic Abuse
Talking About Domestic Abuse: A Photo Activity Workbook to Develop Communication Between Mothers and Young People

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DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

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Episode link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-365-children-as-co-victims-of-coercive-control-with-dr-emma-katz/

Something I hear increasingly among my client population is the experience of burnout after divorce. And this is the thing that very few people prepare you for.
You've made it through the hardest decision of your life. You survived the chaos of the initial separation. You got through the legal process. And then you get to the other side, expecting to feel magically better, clear, and free.
Instead, you feel exhausted.
So in this week's solo episode, I am going to shine a light on what is actually happening in your body and your nervous system after divorce. Why it's so much more than just being tired, what burnout after divorce actually looks like and why it's so disorienting, and what regulated rebuilding actually looks like so you don't end up right back in depletion.
What you'll hear about in this episode:
Why burnout after divorce is about way more than just being tired

How burnout actually shows up and why it catches so many women completely off guard

What regulated rebuilding really looks like after years of survival mode

How tiny micro-steps of noticing, honoring, and following through rebuild self-trust over time

Why powering through burnout is the one thing that will set you back the most

Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate's Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce

Co-dependents Anonymous
Al-Anon
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DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.
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Episode link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-364-burnout-after-divorce-what-nobody-prepares-you-for

Imagine what it would be like to create healthy relationships without sacrificing ourselves as women. That is exactly what Michelle Farris helps women do. Michelle is a psychotherapist and codependency expert, and this conversation goes deep fast. She brings both the clinical knowledge and the lived experience of someone who has done her own recovery work, and honestly, we could not have been more in sync.
Codependency is one of those words that gets thrown around a lot, and yet so many women are still walking around not fully recognizing themselves in it. At its core, it is what happens when someone hyperfocuses on helping, fixing, and controlling others in hopes of getting the love and validation that cannot be given to themselves. So externally focused that the magnifying glass never turns into the mirror. And if the focus is always on someone else, there is no reason to look inward.
This conversation gets into what codependency actually is, why naming it is not a disservice but a necessity, and what it really takes to start building a relationship with yourself when the focus has been on everyone else for as long as anyone can remember. 
Codependency recovery is not about fixing anyone else. It is about finally turning the focus inward. Knowing something is wrong is just the beginning. Finding yourself again is the work.
What you'll hear about in this episode:
What codependency actually is and why helping, fixing, and controlling are not the same as loving (2:10)

Why getting targeted support for codependency and divorce separately actually matters (8:06)

Labeling codependency as a "disservice to women": Michelle explains why the problem has to be named before healing can begin (9:45)

How Michelle works with women who in codependency recovery and what that process looks like (23:55)

How codependency directly impacts divorce outcomes and the ability to advocate for yourself (30:51)

Why wrapping yourself in the identity of mother can become its own way of avoiding recovery and what it does to your kids (32:23)

Boundaries, what they actually are, why they feel impossible at first, and how to start small (37:51)

Learn more about Michelle Farris:
Michelle Farris is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with a passion for helping people break free from toxic relationship patterns. She's been featured in top online publications and podcasts and has reached over 3 million viewers on her YouTube channel, where she's known for giving relationship skills that work. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing, trust themselves again, and build healthy, connected relationships through practical tools for codependency recovery, emotional regulation, and self-trust.
Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate's Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 
Michelle's website
Michelle on YouTube
Michelle on Facebook
Michelle on Instagram
Michelle on LinkedIn
Pia Mellody Codependency Tree 
===================
DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.
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Episode link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-363-codependency-in-women-signs-patterns-and-how-to-break-free-with-michelle-farris

The question I hear more than almost any other, from clients, from women inside Phoenix Rising, and from my community is: "Why didn't I leave sooner?" Perhaps it's an inner voice that nudges. It sounds like you, but it's partially your friends, your family, maybe your attorney or it's cultural. That voice asks, "If it was so bad, why did she stay?" or  "You should have known better."

But here's what I want you to hear: waiting to leave is not a failure and leaving is not defined by a single moment. It's a process. You didn't fail to leave sooner, you were in the process of leaving. You were in the process of becoming the woman who could.

In this episode I talk about what that process actually looks like and why the timeline you're judging yourself for may be exactly what made exiting your marriage possible. I get into how hope keeps women in relationships longer than almost anything else, and why that's not a weakness. I also explore why doing this self-work inside a community of women who get it, is exponentially more powerful than going through it alone.

The goal isn't just to get out, it is to build something different on the other side. That's exactly what you're doing.

What you'll hear about in this episode:

How leaving starts as a whisper and why staying at that point actually feels like the more responsible choice
Those practical realities like "where will I live?" or "what happens to the kids?", aren't about being stuck. They're about assessing risk.
Leaving requires a version of you that doesn't exist yet, and becoming that person takes time
How to reframe the question from "why didn't I leave sooner" to "what was I learning?"
Why leaving before you're ready can actually prolong the cycle and how the timing, even when it feels late, is often exactly what you needed

✨ If you'd like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here

Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate's Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 

===================

DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

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Episode link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-362-why-didnt-i-leave-sooner-because-you-were-becoming-the-person-who-could/

TEDx speaker, author, neurodiversity and mental health advocate, and host of the Sensitivity Doctor podcast. Her work centers on relationship trauma and gaslighting recovery, and she brings over 20 years of clinical experience to everything she does. We have done some incredible episodes together, and this is no exception.

Amelia recently brought to my attention a study exploring the impact of Kentucky's 50/50 shared custody ruling, which has been credited with dropping divorce rates by 25% or more. Articles are celebrating the decrease in divorce. And that is exactly what alarmed us.

Here's why: Divorce rates are not dropping because people are happier in their marriages.

What this ruling is actually doing is forcing victims to stay in unsafe marriages because they are terrified of their children being alone with their abuser 50% of the time. 

Now other states are looking at Kentucky as a model of success worth replicating. So we are digging into what this actually means from a trauma-informed perspective. What happens in the nervous system when the legal system puts the burden of proof on the victim. Why a child witnessing abuse meets the clinical definition of PTSD, and why courts are not looking at it that way. And what it does to a survivor, psychologically and physiologically, when they are told they must hand their child to their abuser half of the time. 

This is a legal conversation, but we are not here as attorneys. We are here as trauma-informed professionals who see what this is doing to survivors every single day.

What you'll hear about in this episode:

Why dropping divorce rates are not always a good thing and what is actually keeping people from leaving (2:40)
The burden of proof is on the victim, and what that does to them psychologically (10:46)
What happens in the nervous system when you are told you must share your child 50% of the time with your abuser (12:00)
Why your attorney is not your therapist or divorce coach and why an interdisciplinary team matters (15:08)
Aimee Says AI, the tool built for survivors that helps document, organize, and categorize abuse evidence (18:16)
Why a child witnessing abuse is, by definition, a traumatized child and why courts don't see it that way (21:26)
How to find a therapist who will testify, and why you need to ask upfront before you need them (23:42)


Learn more about Dr. Amelia Kelley:
Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, professor, TED speaker, author, and neurodiversity and mental health advocate, as well as the host of The Sensitivity Doctor podcast. Her work centers on relationship trauma and gaslighting recovery, supporting those impacted by emotional and psychological harm in rebuilding self-trust, clarity, and nervous-system stability. With over 20 years of clinical experience, she takes an integrative, science-grounded approach informed by IFS, EMDR, somatic and polyvagal theory, and ADHD research. She is currently writing her forthcoming book on ADHD treatment in women with Norton Publishing.


Resources & Links:

Get Your Curated Podcast Playlist
Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate's Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 

Dr. Amelia Kelley's website
Dr. Kelley on Facebook
Dr. Kelley on Instagram
Dr. Kelley on LinkedIn

Episode 353: Aimee Says Updates: How Women Are Documenting Abuse in Real Time with Anne Wintemute
Episode 335: Making Your Trauma Responses Work For You with Dr. Amelia Kelley
Article: Kentucky's Equal Custody Law Shows Why America Needs Shared Parenting Presumptions

===================

DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

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Episode link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-361-why-dropping-divorce-rates-are-not-always-good-news-with-dr-amelia-kelley/