Relationship Truth: Unfiltered

Not Aware Enough or Doesn't Care Enough? Dr. George Simon on Character Disturbance and What You Can Control
Have you ever walked away from a conversation with your husband feeling like you are the one who is losing your mind — even though you know something is deeply wrong? That disorientation is not a personal failing. According to today's guest, it is often the most reliable signal that something far more serious than a communication problem or personality clash is at work.

In this powerful conversation, Leslie sits down with Dr. George Simon — internationally recognized authority on manipulation and character disturbance, and the man whose groundbreaking work first gave the world a name for gaslighting — to bring you the clarity so many women have been searching for. You will walk away understanding why character matters more than diagnosis, why confusion is a warning sign rather than a flaw, and what it actually looks like to love yourself and others well when you are living with someone whose character is deeply misaligned with love.

 

Key Takeaways

Character Disturbance Is Not the Same as a Mental Health Diagnosis — and the Difference Changes Everything

A person dealing with a genuine mental health condition, such as bipolar disorder, will typically respond to consequences with remorse, seek accountability, and cooperate with help. A character-disturbed person, by contrast, does not want to change — they like how they operate. Dr. Simon explains that the tactics most therapists and pastors were trained to use were designed for a completely different kind of struggle, and applying them to character disturbance is not only ineffective but can cause real harm. Understanding this distinction frees you from the exhausting and impossible task of trying to fix what only the other person has the power and responsibility to address.

 

Confusion in the Relationship Is a Warning Sign, Not Your Weakness

Dr. Simon introduced the concept now widely known as gaslighting long before it entered everyday language, and he explains here exactly how it works on the mind. When a manipulative person acts with apparent conviction — minimizing what they have done, blaming you for provoking it, and reframing reality with intensity and certainty — they create genuine doubt in someone who is already unsure of their own worth. The key insight is this: you are not confused because something is wrong with you. You are confused because a skilled manipulator is working very hard to make you feel that way. Judging behavior on its own merits, independent of any excuse offered, is the first and most grounding step toward reclaiming your clarity.

 

They See — But in Their Hearts, They Still Disagree

One of the most liberating truths in this entire conversation is Dr. Simon's clear-eyed statement: it is not that character-disturbed people do not see what they are doing. They see it. The problem is not awareness — it is that they do not yet care enough to change. You cannot think your way, plead your way, or love your way into producing that change in another person. Real change, if it comes at all, happens in the present moment through consistent, concrete behavior — not apologies, not tears, and not promises. Leslie reflects on how this understanding protects women from being misled by performances of remorse that have no roots in genuine character transformation.

 

Loving Yourself Is Not Selfishness — It Is the Starting Point of All Real Love

Both Leslie and Dr. Simon return to this truth throughout the conversation: you cannot love another person well if you do not first know your own worth and act to protect it. Dr. Simon connects this directly to the command of Jesus — love as I have loved you — and challenges the misreading of Christian submission that leaves women spiritually equipped to endure harm but not to refuse it. Enabling someone else's destructive behavior is not love; it is fear dressed in the language of faithfulness. Withdrawing from demeaning treatment, setting a firm limit on what you will participate in, and stewarding your own dignity are not uncharitable acts. They are the foundation of any love that is rooted in truth rather than self-erasure.

The Church Has Work to Do — and So Do You

Dr. Simon and Leslie speak honestly about why churches have been so slow to recognize and respond well to character disturbance and abuse. An over-emphasis on preserving the institution of marriage, patriarchal structures that diminish the voice and agency of women, and a focus on correct theology over Christlike character have all contributed to environments where harm goes unaddressed and victims are pressured to stay silent. The answer, as Dr. Simon puts it plainly, is more Jesus — not more rules, not more labels, but a serious and sustained attention to the character and manner of the One we say we follow. For the woman listening, this is both an invitation and a permission: the God who washed dirty feet and welcomed women into his circle of students sees you, and he does not ask you to disappear into someone else's dysfunction.

Personal Invitation

If this conversation is stirring something in you — if you are trying to discern whether what you are seeing in your husband is real change or a familiar pattern you have been through before — Leslie wants to meet you where you are. She is hosting a free workshop designed specifically for Christian women in difficult marriages called Is He Changing or Just Pretending? In this powerful time of teaching, community, and honest question-and-answer, you will learn how to distinguish genuine transformation from empty promises, and you will hear what God actually has to say about your choices and your worth. You do not have to keep sorting through this alone.

Save your spot here: https://leslievernick.com/masterclass

 

Closing Encouragement

If you have spent years feeling confused, dismissed, or quietly ashamed of what is happening behind closed doors, please hear this: your confusion was never evidence of weakness. It was evidence that something was genuinely wrong. God has not called you to disappear. He has called you to be loved, to love well, and to walk in the dignity he placed in you before you ever entered this relationship. The path forward may be hard, but you do not walk it alone. With the right understanding, the right support, and the God who sees every hidden thing, clarity is possible — and so is a life that is safe, whole, and free.

Resources

Please share more about the resources or programs you will be sharing about during the episode.:

My books In Sheep's Clothing, Character Disturbance, How Did We End Up Here?, and especially, Essentials for the Journey, The Judas Syndrome.

 

Find George:

https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/
www.youtube.com/@georgeksimon

Books:
In Sheep's Clothing
Character Disturbance
How Did We End Up Here?
Essentials for the Journey
The Judas Syndrome.

Why Rejection Hits So Hard and How to Stop Letting It Define You
Have you ever been blindsided by a betrayal so complete that it did not just shatter your marriage — it shattered the story you believed about yourself? One moment you thought you knew who you were, who he was, and who God was to you. And then the truth came out, and suddenly nothing felt certain anymore.

In this episode, Leslie sits down with Emmy Award-winning television producer, author, and Chief Creative Officer of Joyce Meyer Ministries, Ginger Stache, co-author of the new book Healing the Wounds of Rejection. Ginger shares with remarkable honesty how the discovery of her husband's long-hidden pornography addiction brought her to her knees — not only in her marriage, but in her identity and her faith. Together, Leslie and Ginger unpack the specific lies rejection plants in a woman's heart, why feeling the pain of rejection is not weakness but proof you were made for love, and how God meets women in the darkness with healing they never saw coming.

Key Takeaways

 

Rejection Attacks Your Identity, Not Just Your Relationship

When Ginger discovered her husband's pornography addiction, she was not only stunned by the betrayal — she was stunned by how quickly it rewrote her story about herself. The questions came fast: What did I do wrong? Why am I not enough? Am I even lovable? Leslie points out that this is exactly what rejection does in a destructive relationship — it does not stay in the marriage, it moves into the marrow of who you believe you are. The critical first step is recognizing that what he chose is not a verdict on your worth. It is not a statement about you.

The Lies Rejection Tells Are Predictable — and They Can Be Named and Refused

Ginger identifies the most common lies rejection whispers: I will never be accepted. There is something fundamentally wrong with me. I cannot become who God made me to be because I am too broken. The key distinction she draws is between being rejected — which happens to every human being, including Jesus himself — and living rejected, which means allowing those lies to become part of your identity. Naming the lie is the first act of resistance. Replacing it with the truth of God's word is how the healing begins, one lie at a time.

Feeling the Pain of Rejection Is Not Weakness — It Is What It Means to Be Human

One of the most powerful moments in this conversation is Ginger's confession that she was ashamed of how hard rejection knocked her down — because she thought her faith made her stronger than that. Research confirms that the brain processes social rejection through the same pain pathways as a broken bone. God created you for love and connection, which means the ache of rejection is not a character flaw. It is the cost of being someone who loves. Leslie adds her own story of unexpectedly sobbing in a parking lot after being turned away at a pickleball court — and recognizing it as an old childhood wound asking to be seen and healed. Self-compassion, not self-criticism, is what opens the door.

The Story of Leah Tells Us What Healing Actually Looks Like

Ginger and Leslie turn to the story of Leah in Genesis 29 as one of the most honest and hope-filled pictures of what it looks like to move from rejection to rest. Married to a man who openly preferred her sister, Leah spent years trying to earn love through her children. But by her fourth son, something shifted. She stopped saying, Surely he will love me now, and said instead, This time I will praise the Lord. Healing did not look like Jacob finally choosing her. It looked like Leah choosing God as her source — finding that his love was not conditional on what her husband did or did not give her. That same shift is available to you.

You Have a Choice — and Reclaiming It Is Where Healing Starts

One of the most empowering threads running through this conversation is the call to reclaim your ability to choose in the middle of circumstances you did not choose. You did not choose his addiction. You did not choose his betrayal. But you can choose whether to believe the lie or the truth. You can choose faith over feelings that feel more real right now. You can choose to risk loving again because, as Ginger says, not loving anyone is a far worse fate than being hurt while loving. Leslie draws on the story of Joseph — thrown into slavery and into prison by rejection at every turn — as a biblical witness to the truth that rejection does not have to define you. The path forward begins with that one small, courageous choice.

Personal Invitation

If this conversation is stirring something deep in you — if you recognize the lies Ginger described, if you have been carrying the weight of rejection in your body, your identity, and your faith for longer than you want to admit — you do not have to keep doing this alone. Leslie's Walking in Core Strength community is a group coaching experience designed to help you stay rooted in truth, respond with wisdom and compassion, and stop losing yourself to patterns that are costing you everything. This is your invitation to take a step toward the woman God made you to be.

https://leslievernick.com/strong

Closing Encouragement

You were created by a God who does not reject. He pursues. He sees. He binds up wounds. And on the days when rejection has knocked you so far down that you can barely whisper the words — God, do you even love me? — he is already answering. You never have to beg for my love. It is always here for you.

Whatever has been done to you, whatever lies have taken root, whatever chapter of your story feels irredeemable right now — God is not finished. He is working layer by layer, step by step, in ways you cannot yet see. And one day, you will look back and know that he had his hand on you the entire time. You are not alone. You are not unloved. And rejection does not get the last word. God does.

Have you ever caught yourself thinking, "Maybe this time he really means it" — and then hated yourself for thinking it again? You are not weak. You are not foolish. You are caught in something far more powerful than willpower alone.

In this deeply honest and compassionate episode, Leslie Vernick names two forces that work together to keep women stuck in destructive relationships: Hopium — the counterfeit hope dressed in spiritual language — and the trauma bond that keeps feeding it. You will walk away understanding what is actually happening in your mind, your body, and your faith, and you will leave with a clear framework, real questions to ask yourself, and the courage to trade a false hope for a genuine one.

Key Takeaways

Hopium Is Not Biblical Hope.

Hopium sounds like faith. It uses words like trust, submission, forgiveness, and patience — but it places all the weight of your husband's choices onto your faith. True biblical hope, the kind found in Psalm 33, is rooted in God's character alone, not in a husband's potential or his latest promise. Leslie draws a clear and important line: God can change a heart, but God never forces a heart to change. Confusing those two things will crush you. Biblical hope gives you the courage to face reality; Hopium asks you to deny it.

Trauma Bonds Are Real, and They Are Not Your Fault

A trauma bond is a specific kind of toxic attachment created by three conditions working together: an imbalance of power, intermittent reinforcement (the cycle of warmth and cruelty that hijacks your nervous system), and coercive control, which in Christian settings often includes the weaponizing of Scripture. Leslie explains that trauma bonds are frequently mislabeled as godly virtues — long-suffering, loyalty, unconditional love — which is precisely what makes them so hard to name and so hard to leave. Even the Israelites, after escaping slavery, idealized Egypt and wanted to go back. That is not weakness; that is a predictable, understandable response to long-term trauma.

Hopium and Trauma Bonds Feed Each Other

These are not two separate problems. The trauma bond creates the neurological and emotional pull toward him regardless of what he does; Hopium gives that pull a spiritual costume. Instead of "I cannot stop wanting him even though he hurts me," it becomes "I believe God will restore this marriage." Instead of "my nervous system is hijacked," it becomes "I just need more faith." Leslie uses the disciples on the road to Emmaus as a powerful anchor: the hope they expected died, but Jesus was still walking right beside them. Your marriage may not become what you prayed for, and that grief is real — but God has not abandoned you. He offers his presence, his truth, and a different kind of hope than the one you expected.

How to Tell Whether Change Is Real

Leslie answers six listener questions with remarkable clarity, including the one so many women are afraid to ask: how do I know if his change is genuine? She introduces the framework of old history versus new history — what patterns defined the past, and what consistent new patterns are you seeing now, not just during the honeymoon phase and not just when he fears consequences? Genuine change looks like humility without minimizing, ownership without blaming, patience with your healing, and changed behavior that persists even when no one is watching. Using the language of change without the fruit of change is not change — it is manipulation.

The HOPE Framework: A Practical Path Forward

Leslie closes with a simple, memorable framework to help you take your next step.

Honesty: what is actually true right now, what is the real pattern, what is the real impact on you and your children?
Ownership: what is his work to do, and what is yours, and what have you been carrying that does not belong to you?
Protection: what needs protecting right now: your body, your mind, your children, your finances, your faith?
Empowered next step: what is one wise decision you can make today, whether he changes or not? You do not need his transformation to begin your own.

Personal Invitation

If this episode stirred something in you — if you have been trying harder and praying harder and still feeling crazy, powerless, or trapped — I want you to know there is a next step waiting for you. I am hosting a free webinar called the Four Lies that Make Christian Women Feel Crazy and Powerless in Their Destructive Relationships. We are going to unpack exactly why these beliefs sound so biblical, how they are shaping the way you respond, and what Scripture actually offers instead. This is for the woman who loves God and loves her marriage but is starting to wonder if something has gone deeply wrong. Come and find out what is really true.

Register here: https://leslievernick.com/lies

Closing Encouragement

Wherever you are today — still in the relationship, newly separated, grieving a marriage you never wanted to lose — God sees you. He sees what you have tried. He sees what it has cost you. He sees every time you forgave, waited, hoped, and tried again. He is not asking you to live in denial. He is not asking you to endure destruction and call it faithfulness.

Hopium waits for him to change so that you can finally live. Biblical hope helps you live faithfully and wisely whether he changes or not. A trauma bond whispers that you cannot survive without him. The truth is you were made to survive, to heal, and to flourish in the freedom God intended for you from the beginning.

That freedom begins with honesty. It grows with wisdom. And it is sustained by a God who is still walking right beside you — even on the road to Emmaus, even when the hope you once carried is gone. You are not alone, and you are not without genuine hope. Take one step this week, and trust that He will meet you there.

From Crazy-Making to Clarity: One Woman's Journey Out of a Destructive Marriage
What do you do when you cry out to God at two in the morning — not because you are praying, but because you are too afraid to go to sleep?

 

That is exactly where Shelley found herself: a musician, a mother, a woman of deep faith living in Australia with a vision impairment, and a marriage that had quietly unraveled into something dangerous and demeaning. In this episode, Leslie sits down with Shelley to hear the story she could not tell for years — the moment she finally named what was happening, the community that reminded her she was not crazy, and the God who showed up in the most practical and tender ways imaginable. If you have been told to pray harder, submit more, and trust that God will fix it, this conversation will meet you exactly where you are and point you toward something better.

Key Takeaways

The Moment You Realize It Is Not Just a Hard Marriage

For Shelley, the turning point came wrapped in a birthday gift — a beautiful purple shirt with a Proverbs 31 verse on it. When she asked her husband why he chose it, he told her he thought she needed a reminder to be kind to their children. That single moment cracked open years of confusion. Looking back, she recognized a pattern: extravagant public gifts followed by being called high maintenance, and birthdays that ended in tears. If you have been dismissing a pattern as immaturity or spiritual immaturity, Shelley's story gently invites you to look more honestly at what the pattern actually reveals.

 

You Cannot Conquer Your Marriage Until You Conquer Your Own Blind Spots

One of the most courageous and unexpected things Shelley shared was her discovery inside the Conquer community of the drama triangle — and her own role in it. She had been rescuing, managing, and attempting to control her husband's behavior as a way of managing her own fear. As she put it, she realized she was in Conquer not to conquer her marriage, but to conquer her own pride, blind spots, and reactions. This is the kind of honest, growth-oriented work that goes beyond surviving — it is the work of becoming. As Leslie reminds us, being a true victim does not mean we have no work of our own to do. Healing work and growth work are both necessary.

 

You Are Not Crazy — You Need Community That Understands

Shelley described the relief of finding a group of women walking a similar path not simply as encouragement but as sanity. Talking to a therapist every two weeks was not enough. She needed women who were wrestling the same questions with God, some two steps ahead of her and some two steps behind. The isolation of a destructive marriage — especially inside a church community that offers only submission and prayer — can make a woman doubt her own perception of reality. Being seen and heard by women who understand is not a luxury. It is part of the path back to clarity.

 

God Provides Through People — Even When the Church Has Failed You

Shelley's exit from her marriage was not clean or simple. She faced a three-year property battle, children who chose to stay with their father, emergency housing challenges, and a previous church that told her to submit. And yet, God placed person after person in her path — a domestic violence support worker's wife, a church that paid her rent, a rental manager who went out of her way, a prayer meeting friend who became her disability support worker and sat with her through her final court appearance. Shelley's story is a living reminder that God's provision rarely looks the way we expect, and it almost always arrives through the hands and feet of ordinary people.

 

Your Life Has a Purpose Beyond the Role You Were Robbed Of

Shelley is now pursuing her long-deferred dream of recording her original songs — music born from the middle of the painful years, written to reach other women still caught in the confusion. Her reflection is worth sitting with: she had been waiting all these years for someone else to make room in their calendar for her dreams. She has decided to stop waiting. If you have spent years making yourself smaller to keep the peace, Shelley's invitation to you is a generous and courageous one — there is only one you, and no one can represent Jesus to this world the way that you can. You deserve to reach your full potential.

Personal Invitation

If Shelley's story stirred something in you — if you recognized yourself in the confusion, the isolation, the spiritual wrestling — you do not have to keep navigating this alone. We've created a resource designed specifically for women in your situation. Get the Quickstart Guide: https://leslievernick.com/guide

You are not crazy, and you are not alone. What you are living through is real, and naming it is not betrayal — it is the beginning of truth. Shelley walked out of years of confusion, spiritual manipulation, and isolation into a life of peace, purpose, and genuine relationship with her children and her God. That same God is not finished with your story either. He meets us in our limits with unexpected strength. He hears the prayers we pray at two in the morning, the ones where we are not even sure we have permission to ask. He answered Shelley's. He will answer yours. Take the next right step, and trust that He will meet you there.

How to Thrive as the Default Parent
When you're doing it all in a neurodiverse family 
with Stephanie Holmes
 

What do you do when you are the only one who sees what your child needs, the only one managing the appointments, the IEPs, the protocols, the meltdowns, the mental load — and the other parent is sitting right there in the same house?

If that question landed somewhere deep in your chest, this episode was made for you. Leslie sits down with Dr. Stephanie Holmes, a certified autism specialist, trained therapist for neurodiverse couples, and founder of Autism Spectrum Resources — a woman who has also lived this road personally as both a wife and a mother. Together they pull back the curtain on what it really costs a woman to carry the full weight of parenting a neurodiverse child alongside a disengaged or neurodiverse spouse, what it takes to finally speak up, and how you can protect your own mental, emotional, and spiritual health even when you cannot change your husband or your circumstances. You will walk away from this conversation feeling seen, equipped with practical perspective shifts, and reminded that your faithfulness to your children matters more than you can imagine.

Key Takeaways

 

The Mental and Emotional Cost of Being the Default Parent Is Real — and It Is Not Weakness

Stephanie describes nearly reaching a complete breakdown after years of functioning as the sole executive for her entire household — managing three neurodiverse family members, running a counseling practice, and absorbing every logistical, emotional, and spiritual demand without asking for help. The toll showed up as migraines, exhaustion, depression, and a crisis of faith. If you have been white-knuckling it through your days and wondering why you are falling apart when you look like you are holding it together, this is not a character flaw. It is the predictable result of one person carrying what two people were designed to share.

 

Lies Dressed as Biblical Mandates Can Keep You Trapped and Suffering Longer Than Necessary

Stephanie carried a painful burden for years because a pastor told her in premarital counseling that if she chose to work outside the home, she could never ask her husband to carry any of the domestic load. She signed onto that belief at nineteen, never anticipating children, neurodiversity, or the reality of what their life would actually require. Leslie names this pattern directly — cultural ideas packaged as spiritual law that keep good women silent, overloaded, and ashamed to ask for what they need. Naming the lie is the first step toward freedom.

 

Making the Mental Load Visible Can Open a Door That Silence Never Could

The turning point in Stephanie's marriage came not from an argument or an ultimatum, but from a simple, concrete act: she wrote every task down and laid both lists on the table. For her husband, seeing the imbalance visually was the thing that finally made it real. If your husband has not responded to your exhaustion or your words, it does not automatically mean he is cruel — it may mean he genuinely cannot perceive what he has never been shown. This does not excuse a lack of action, but it does suggest that a different kind of communication may open a different kind of conversation.

 

You Cannot Control the External, But You Can Steward What Is Internal

Leslie offers one of the most grounding frameworks in the episode: when we are overwhelmed by everything we cannot control — our husband's choices, what happens on his parenting time, whether the school cooperates — we tend to redouble our efforts to control the external, which only deepens our distress. The real work, the work that actually moves the needle, happens inside. Choosing to build community, finding your support people, deciding who you want to be in the middle of this hard season — these are the things within your reach. As Stephanie says, she eventually made a decision: I am going to survive this and I am going to thrive despite this.

You Do Not Have to Earn Permission to Get Help, Go to Church, or Take Your Kids on Vacation

One of the most practically liberating moments in this conversation is when Stephanie realizes that her husband's unwillingness to participate does not mean she and her children cannot participate in life. He had never told her she could not take the girls on vacation — she had simply assumed that a good Christian wife would not go without him. When she stopped waiting for his yes and started making choices for her children's good, things began to shift. If your husband is not leading, someone still has to keep the plane in the air. Choosing to do that is not a failure of submission — it is a faithful act of stewardship.

Personal Invitation

If this conversation stirred something in you — if you recognized yourself in the exhaustion, the false beliefs, the longing for someone to finally name what you have been living — we want you to know there is a place to go deeper. My Moving Beyond People Pleasing course was built for women who have spent years putting everyone else's needs, comfort, and approval ahead of their own, and who are ready to learn how to show up differently. It is grounded in Scripture, filled with practical tools, and designed for women who are serious about becoming the truest, most grounded version of who God created them to be.

You can learn more and get started here: https://leslievernick.com/mbpp

Closing Encouragement

You are not failing. You are carrying something extraordinarily heavy, and you have been carrying it largely alone. But you were not meant to do this without God, without community, and without a honest look at what is truly yours to hold and what is not.

Stephanie prayed it beautifully in this episode — God is Emmanuel, which means He is with us. He is with you in the IEP meeting, in the exhausted silence after the kids are in bed, in the anger you have been afraid to admit, and in the small faithful steps you take every single day. James 1:5 promises that if you ask for wisdom, He will give it generously. He is not withholding from you. He is walking with you, one step at a time, lighting just enough of the path ahead to keep moving forward.

You are not alone. And change — in you, through you, and around you — is possible.