Being Well with Forrest Hanson and Dr. Rick Hanson

Have you ever had a friend not text you back, and you’re certain that they’re mad at you? This is often a disruption in the process of mentalization: the ability to recognize that our thoughts and feelings might not be facts. Mentalization is a process we can all struggle with, but it’s particularly important for people who have Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).

In this episode, Forrest is joined by psychotherapist and author Robert Drozek to discuss mentalization-based treatment (MBT) and the tools that can help us develop more flexibility and curiosity around our assumptions. Bob outlines the three common modes of mentalizing, explains how childhood experiences shape mentalization, and offers a map for building healthier ways of relating to our thoughts and feelings. 

About our Guest: Robert Drozak is a clinical social worker, the clinical director of the Mentalization-Based Treatment Clinic at McLean Hospital, and a teaching associate in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. His new book, Mentalization: Utilizing Reflection to Heal from Borderline Personality Disorder, is the first book about Mentalization-Based Treatment aimed at a general audience. 

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: what is mentalization?

5:12: Ways mentalization can go wrong

13:25: Borderline Personality Disorder as a deficit in mentalization

22:13: How mentalization is shaped in childhood

28:54: The alien self

32:23: Developing an MBT formulation

42:03: MBT in the therapy room

54:40: Challenging your beliefs and assumptions

1:11:21: How to get out of pretend mode

1:21:37: Addressing problems with interoception

1:30:00: Recap

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Why does knowing we overthink not help us stop? Dr. Rick and Forrest discuss why rumination becomes a self-reinforcing habit,  and why insight alone rarely helps. They distinguish between rumination and reflection, and talk about how balancing acceptance and agency can help us go from one to the other. Forrest talks about the relationship between overthinking and feelings of disappointment and failure, and Rick shares practical ways to interrupt the cycle, shift into more concrete forms of problem-solving, and finally stop ruminating.

Rick's Rumination Course: If rumination is a persistent issue for you, check out Rick’s five-week online course focused on practical tools for letting go of these negative thought loops. Learn more at RickHanson.com/ruminating, and use coupon code BeingWell25 to receive a 25% discount.

Previous episodes on rumination and overthinking:


Breaking the Self-Awareness Trap: How to Stop Overthinking | Being Well


Rumination: How to Disrupt Obsessive Thoughts

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: what is rumination

5:35: Why we ruminate

21:06: Why rumination doesn't help us

25:24: Moving from rumination to reflection

31:35: Rumination as a habit

38:40: Interrupting the rumination habit

46:44: Radical helplessness and radical resourcefulness

53:43: More ways to move from abstract to concrete thinking 

1:07:23: The role of mindfulness

1:13:32: Recap

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In this very special episode, Dr. Jacob Ham and associate therapist Elizabeth Ferreira join me to discuss their work as trauma therapists. They talk openly about the messy, unglamorous reality of struggle, mistakes, and repair that characterizes trauma work, its nature as both art and science, how their work has changed over time, and what they’ve learned along the way. Topics include self-disclosure, working with shame and grief, dealing with situations where the client wants an apology, the difference between trauma work and more manualized approaches, therapist training and supervision, and “polishing the mirror.” 

I loved listening to Dr. Ham and Elizabeth talk during this episode. It’s a truly unique one, and I hope you enjoy it. 

About our Guest: Dr. Jacob Ham is a clinical psychologist, Associate Clinical Professor at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and the Director of the Center for Complex Trauma there. He's the clinician featured in Stephanie Foo’s wonderful book What My Bones Know.

Key Topics : 

0:00: Introduction and nervousness

6:21: The role of disclosure

11:34: Mistakes, rupture, and repair

23:20: Sharing grief

33:04: Supervision and parallel process 

36:29: Therapy as an art form

47:52: Structure, flexibility, and 'opening the hand'

52:50: A listener question: how to let it all go

1:02:40: How trauma work changes you

1:07:46: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest explore the lessons we can learn from two of Humanistic psychology’s more challenging branches: existential psychology and transpersonal psychology. Existential psychology asks what it means to build a meaningful life in the face of death, while Transpersonal psychology wonders if the individual self is what we should be so focused on. Forrest and Rick focus on the work of Rollo May, Irvin Yalom, Abraham Maslow, and Stanislav Grof, and major themes include freedom, agency, anxiety, the limits of the “self,” and how confronting these can lead to a fuller and more meaningful life. 

Rick’s Self-Worth Course: Starts this week! In this 6-week online course, Rick will guide you in practical, research-backed ways to release old patterns and grow a lasting sense of confidence, kindness toward yourself, and genuine self-worth. Learn more at RickHanson.com/worthy and use coupon code BeingWell25 to receive a 25% discount.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and recap of humanistic psychology

6:12: History and context of existential psychology

12:04: Three important lessons from existentialism

26:03: Agency and meaning making within existential psychology

38:38: Overview of transpersonal psychology

1:00:43: Three important lessons from transpersonal psychology

1:11:14: Closing reflections, and a one word summary

1:14:07: Recap

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Why don’t we choose the things we know are good for us? It’s usually because we’re struggling with self-regulation, one of the most important (and most misunderstood) skills out there. In today’s episode, Forrest talks with Eric Zimmer about what healthy self-regulation actually looks like,  the gap between insight and action, how shame can derail us, and why most change comes down to small steps taken consistently. They discuss how to figure out what actually matters to you vs. what you want right now, the tension between acceptance and change, and how to get back on track after a slip without making it worse.

About our Guest: Eric Zimmer is the creator of The One You Feed, an award-winning podcast with over 50 million downloads. He’s also the author of the new book, How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro: Why is self-regulation so important?

4:32: Moving from insight to action

8:14: Values versus desires

14:25: Eric’s sobriety journey

20:57: Changing our relationship to shame

32:05: When to accept things as they are, and when to move from acceptance to change 

38:17: Choosing the more useful meaning

42:51: How to get over self-doubt

46:41: Having a backup plan for when things go sideways

53:54: Balancing striving with non-craving

1:06:16: Recap

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