Material Abundance: Radical AI’s Closed-Loop Lab Automates Scientific Discovery
Joseph Krause and Jorge Colindres, co-founders of Radical AI, unveil their "materials flywheel" – an integrated system combining frontier AI with autonomous labs to revolutionize materials discovery. They detail how this closed-loop system achieves unprecedented experimental throughput, addressing the costly and slow development cycle that plagues critical industries. Learn how their property-driven AI engine, multimodal data integration, and robotic labs are vertically integrated to create foundational materials for everything from semiconductors to hypersonic flight.
Sponsors:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure:
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Shopify:
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CHAPTERS:
(00:00) About the Episode
(03:45) Introduction and Company Overview
(05:01) Materials Science Problems
(10:35) Scale-up and Processing Challenges
(16:38) Customer-Driven Material Discovery (Part 1)
(18:26) Sponsor: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure
(19:35) Customer-Driven Material Discovery (Part 2)
(23:17) Company Mission and Vision (Part 1)
(31:54) Sponsor: Shopify
(33:50) Company Mission and Vision (Part 2)
(34:44) The AI-Lab Flywheel
(40:27) AI Models and Architecture
(49:49) Scientific Intuition and Experience
(58:11) Active Learning and Breakthroughs
(01:04:45) Data Challenges and Sources
(01:14:38) Search Space and Automation
(01:25:14) Inference Scaling and Properties
(01:31:01) Active Learning Implementation
(01:37:01) Move 37s in Materials
(01:44:31) IP Strategy and Business
(01:48:24) Air Force Partnership
(01:51:23) Culture and Closing
(01:53:22) Outro
SOCIAL LINKS:
Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai
Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast
Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/
Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk
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1:54:55
Untangling Neural Network Mechanisms: Goodfire's Lee Sharkey on Parameter-based Interpretability
Today Lee Sharkey of Goodfire joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss his research on parameter decomposition methods that break down neural networks into interpretable computational components, exploring how his team's "stochastic parameter decomposition" approach addresses the limitations of sparse autoencoders and offers new pathways for understanding, monitoring, and potentially steering AI systems at the mechanistic level.
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Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan
Parameter vs. Activation Decomposition: Traditional interpretability methods like Sparse Autoencoders (SAEs) focus on analyzing activations, while parameter decomposition focuses on understanding the parameters themselves - the actual "algorithm" of the neural network.
No "True" Decomposition: None of the decompositions (whether sparse dictionary learning or parameter decomposition) are objectively "right" because they're all attempting to discretize a fundamentally continuous object, inevitably introducing approximations.
Tradeoff in Interpretability: There's a balance between reconstruction loss and causal importance - as you decompose networks more, reconstruction loss may worsen, but interpretability might improve up to a certain point.
Potential Unlearning Applications: Parameter decomposition may make unlearning more straightforward than with SAEs because researchers are already working in parameter space and can directly modify vectors that perform specific functions.
Function Detection vs. Input Direction: A function like "deception" might manifest in many different input directions that SAEs struggle to identify as a single concept, while parameter decomposition might better isolate such functionality.
Knowledge Extraction Goal: A key aim is to extract knowledge from models by understanding how they "think," especially for tasks where models demonstrate superhuman capabilities.
Sponsors:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive
Shopify:
Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive
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2:02:11
What if Humans Weaponize Superintelligence, w/ Tom Davidson, from Future of Life Institute Podcast
Today Tom Davidson of Forethought joins Gus Docker of the Future of Life Institute podcast to discuss AI-enabled coups and how future AI systems could help powerful individuals seize political control, exploring three threat models—singular loyalties, secret loyalties, and exclusive access—along with their estimated 10% likelihood over the next 30 years and potential mitigation strategies.
Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify.
Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan
Three Primary AI Coup Enablement Methods: Tom Davidson identifies singular loyalties, secret loyalties, and distributed control as the main ways AI could enable coups.
Singular Loyalties Risk: AI systems explicitly programmed to be loyal to specific individuals present a significant threat, especially when AI can fully replace humans in critical roles.
Secret Loyalties Threat: AI systems with hidden backdoors or "sleeper agents" that can be activated to serve particular interests represent a subtle but dangerous coup vector.
Geopolitical Implications: Advanced AI capabilities could enable nations to instigate coups in other countries through secretly loyal systems or by providing exclusive AI access to specific politicians.
Adversarial Testing Framework: An effective approach involves red teams attempting to produce secret loyalties while blue teams try to detect them, revealing vulnerable points in AI systems.
Military Procurement Principles: Developing consensus within military communities around principles like law-following and distributed control could create safer AI procurement processes.
Sponsors:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive
Shopify:
Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive
PRODUCED BY:
https://aipodcast.ing
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2:04:18
The AI Whistleblower Initiative: Supporting AGI Insiders When It Matters Most, w/ founder Karl Koch
Today Karl Koch, Co-Founder of the AI Whistleblower Initiative, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss the barriers preventing AI insiders from raising safety concerns, his organization's anonymous "Third Opinion" service connecting whistleblowers with independent experts, and their campaign demanding frontier AI companies publish their internal whistleblowing policies to address widespread retaliation and lack of transparency.
Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify.
Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan
AI Whistleblower Initiative Origins: Founded by Karl Koch in Berlin, the initiative began with research in early 2024 after consulting with over 100 governance researchers and insiders. Link to the website: https://aiwi.org/
"Third Opinion" Proposition: Launched in late 2024, this program systematically breaks down barriers for insiders to speak up about AI concerns while ensuring their issues are addressed.
Publish Your Policies Campaign: The initiative calls for AI companies to publish their whistleblowing and speaking up policies, with 100% of surveyed insiders supporting this transparency measure. Link to the campaign: https://aiwi.org/publishyourpolicies/
Anonymous Consultation Process: Whistleblowers can seek advice without sharing confidential information through an open-source anonymous tool accessed via Tor browser.
Pro Bono Legal Counsel: Whistleblowers receive connections to experienced legal representation with client privilege protection at any stage of their journey.
Policy Advocacy: Beyond direct support, the initiative works on advocating for better whistleblower protections in both US policy and EU AI regulations.
AI Whistleblower Initiative Survey: https://bit.ly/AIWISurvey
PRODUCED BY:
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1:51:18
Autonomous Organizations: Vending Bench & Beyond, w/ Lukas Petersson & Axel Backlund of Andon Labs
Today Lukas Petersson and Axel Backlund of Andon Labs join The Cognitive Revolution to discuss their experiments deploying autonomous AI agents to run real-world vending machines, exploring the safety challenges and unexpected behaviors that emerge when frontier models like Claude and Grok operate without human oversight.
Read transcript of the episode here.
Check out our sponsors: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify.
Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at https://notion.com/lp/nathan
Autonomous Organization Philosophy: Andon Labs believes that AI models will improve to the point where human oversight becomes impractical due to efficiency constraints, leading them to pursue fully autonomous systems rather than gradual automation.
Vending Bench as a Testing Ground: They created "Vending Bench" as a benchmark for testing long-term coherence of autonomous agents, using vending machines as a practical business case for experimentation.
Domain-Specific vs General AI: There's a notable difference between optimizing AI for narrow domains (like vending machines) versus general-purpose AI, with domain-specific applications potentially being more manageable regarding reward hacking.
Frontier Model Race: Major companies like OpenAI and Google are advancing rapidly in general reasoning capabilities (e.g., IMO Gold achievements) independent of narrow application research.
Insurance and Liability: The insurance industry may play a significant role in AI adoption, with premiums potentially being much higher for general models that could be misused versus narrow-domain models with limited capabilities.
For-profit AI Safety: The case for for-profit companies in AI safety has been historically neglected but is becoming clearer, with accelerators like Seldon Labs supporting this approach.
Sponsors:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure:
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive
Shopify:
Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive
PRODUCED BY:
https://aipodcast.ing
CHAPTERS:
(00:00) About the Episode
(04:49) Company Vision Overview
(12:24) Vending Benchmark Design (Part 1)
(20:12) Sponsor: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure
(21:21) Vending Benchmark Design (Part 2)
(24:41) Model Performance Results (Part 1)
(35:03) Sponsor: Shopify
(37:00) Model Performance Results (Part 2)
(43:06) Real World Deployment
(59:41) Wild Stories Incidents
(01:19:59) Business Safety Strategy
(01:38:20) Future Directions Discussion
(01:47:09) Outro
About "The Cognitive Revolution" | AI Builders, Researchers, and Live Player Analysis
A biweekly podcast where hosts Nathan Labenz and Erik Torenberg interview the builders on the edge of AI and explore the dramatic shift it will unlock in the coming years.
The Cognitive Revolution is part of the Turpentine podcast network. To learn more: turpentine.co
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