The Developmental

In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with one of the wisest, most conscious HR leaders I know: Fleur Carter.

Fleur has spent over twenty years inside one of the world’s largest and most innovative retail organisations, experimenting with what leadership development could become when the old playbooks stop working. Fleur and I have been in each other’s orbit for several years now, connected by a shared passion for vertical development and a growing inquiry about what the people function needs to become in this era of relentless disruption. This conversation grew out of several unrecorded ones - and true to form, we didn’t script it. We followed the thread and got to places we both found insightful, and I hope you do too.
What emerged is an honest exploration of what it takes to do developmental work at enterprise scale from the inside - from the story of a CEO who volunteered his own vulnerability as the starting point for collective change, to the structural redesigns needed when governance and reward systems actively work against the mindset shifts the business says it wants.
I came away holding a question that I think will stay with me for a while: what does it take to learn to breathe in free fall, when there are no more footholds between one disruption and the next?
Episode Highlights
00:00 - Welcome & Intro
Alis introduces Fleur and frames the conversation around reinventing HR in an age where disruption has become the norm rather than the exception.
03:00 - We Are All “In Over Our Heads”
Fleur reflects on Robert Kegan’s metaphor of ‘being in over our heads’ and how the assumption that disruption is temporary seems to have collapsed. A Buddhist teacher’s provocation: what if we stopped looking for footholds and accepted we are in free fall?
10:00 - From Buddhism to Bob Kegan
How Fleur’s personal journey through yoga, Buddhism, and living in India converged with her discovery of adult development theory and the links of modern psychology with ancient wisdom.
14:00 - A CEO Goes First
A new CEO with an intuition that what got them here wouldn’t get them there, and how volunteering his own Immunity to Change Map as the example for leaning into developmental discomfort became a catalyst for change.
17:30 - What Immunity to Change Actually Does
Alis and Fleur unpack the ITC process, including its power as both an individual mirror and a collective diagnostic tool for surfacing the hidden assumptions holding a business back.
22:30 - Why Trying Harder Doesn’t Work
The belief that failure to change means laziness or lack of discipline - and how organisations get trapped in cycles of pushing harder through more programs, more comms, more performance management.
31:00 - Capability vs. Capacity
The distinction that changes everything for HR: self-awareness as a capability you can train versus a capacity you need to develop. How IKEA built a leadership framework that holds both.
38:00 - Practising What You Preach
Why Fleur believes HR teams need to subject themselves to the same developmental work they facilitate for others, and how she and her team walked that talk.
42:00 - When the System Works Against the Change
The tension between a culture that rewards togetherness and consensus, and the need for more self-authored leadership. How governance structures, decision-making processes, and even board meeting formats had to be redesigned.
48:00 - What Is HR’s Role Now?
HR as a strategic driver rather than a fixer of ‘fluffy’ people problems, and how to embed developmental work in leadership programs beyond theory, moving the learning outside of the classroom.
55:00 - Finding Your Tribe
Why the work is lonely if you try to do it alone, and Fleur’s practical model of bringing in support - from developmental coaching, a tribe of like-minded thinkers, and a business mentor from the senior leadership team.
59:00 - Reinventing the Consultant-Client Partnership
What does it look like when consultants, multiple vendors, and internal teams truly collaborate and co-create - letting go of ego and individual goals in service of something bigger?
1:08:00 - Highest Intentions
Fleur’s driving belief that businesses can create positive change in the world, and the role of conscious leadership. And Alis’s biggest polarity - sitting with both despair and radical hope.
Resources mentioned in this episode
* The Testament of a Furniture Dealer by Ingvar Kamprad, IKEA founder
* Brené Brown with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change (Part 1 of 2) - Dare to Lead podcast
* Connect with Fleur on LinkedIn
Guest Bio: Fleur Carter
Fleur Carter is a senior People and Culture leader and organisational learning strategist with extensive experience leading enterprise transformation in one of the world’s largest global retail organisations. She specialises in designing integrated organisational interventions that not only develop leaders’ capacity for complexity but drive real business impact.
Known for her systems thinking, strategic clarity and developmental insight, Fleur has been experimenting with reimagining what leadership development could become in the age of disruption. Fleur has designed and facilitated cutting-edge leadership experiences for senior leaders, developed and implemented a distributed leadership model at enterprise level and acts as a senior team development facilitator, coach and advisor. Working at the forefront of development, Fleur brings her curiosity for people, diversity and culture and how this converges with business realities.
Dive deeper
I hope you’ve enjoyed this article. If you are curious to dive more deeply into learning about Vertical Development and how it might impact your work and life, check out our online library of webinars and certification programs accredited by the International Coaching Federation. If you choose to become a paid subscriber to this Substack, you will receive complimentary access to all our webinars and a 50% discount on our long-form online programs, including our “Vertical Development Practices for Coaches”. You can also check out our new Developmental AI Lab (still in beta) - a laboratory for experimentation with ways AI can foster developmental growth.
If you are seeking to train as a developmental coach and get your first ICF credential, check out our ICF Level 1 Foundation Diploma in Developmental Coaching - next cohort starts in July 2026 (running on Americas/Apac time zones). We only have a handful of places left. Check out the Program Page for details, and reach out to schedule an interview.
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In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with fellow Substacker, Dr. Nathalie Martinek, an independent researcher and facilitator whose story and work brings new clarity to the messy business of human growth. We explore how narcissism, and the shadow of shame that often goes with it, can be reframed not as a clinical label, but as a relational pattern that we each play a part in.
Nathalie takes us from her time as a researcher in cancer biology labs to her own mirror moment: discovering how people (including herself) can behave like cancerous cells within toxic organisational cultures.
In this episode, she shares:
A vivid reframing of narcissism as something we all carry in relationship dynamics
A powerful three‑fold shame framework for navigating inner resistance when we set boundaries
Practical tools—from narrative reframing to the Drama Triangle—to support courageous and relationally healthy leadership
I hope this conversation encourages you to lean into your own developmental edge, helps you discover new pathways to model what you teach and walk the talk as leaders, becoming, as Nathalie beautifully says, an antidote to relational toxicity.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 – Welcome & Intro
Alis introduces Nathalie and sets the scene for a deep dive into shame, narcissism, and walking the talk in leadership and facilitation.
04:20 – From Cancer Biology to Human Systems
Nathalie shares how her early science career in cancer research led her to study dysfunctional human systems and relational toxicity.
12:05 – Becoming the Cancer Cell
A raw reflection on recognising her own toxic behaviours within toxic systems—and the wake-up call that led to change.
19:15 – Spiritual Awakening & Finding a New Path
The messy, long road from burnout to learning reflective practice, spiritual healing, and group facilitation.
26:40 – Walking the Talk
Nathalie explains how the Family Partnership Model demands facilitators model what they teach—and how she learned to embody it.
34:15 – What Not Walking the Talk Looks Like
Real examples from facilitation settings—when leaders perform care but undermine psychological safety.
42:50 – Moral Courage in Facilitation
What to do when the person with the most power in the room (the leader) is also part of the problem.
49:10 – Hacking Your Own Narcissism
Nathalie redefines narcissism as a relational pattern, not a pathology, and invites facilitators (and leaders) to examine their power and need for control.
55:50 – Three Types of Shame
Nathalie introduces her brilliant framework:
Shame 1: Breaking rules you didn’t know existed.
Shame 2: Violating your own values to conform.
Shame 3: Feeling guilt after setting healthy boundaries.
1:09:10 – Good Person Syndrome & Boundary Guilt
Exploring the tension between being a “good person” and choosing self-alignment over others’ comfort.
1:16:35 – Practical Tools for Working with Shame
From reframing narratives to breathing exercises and working with Karpman’s Drama Triangle as a reflection tool.
1:23:00 – Final Reflections
Why increasing our tolerance to shame might be one of the most powerful levers for individual and collective transformation.
Guest Bio: Dr. Nathalie Martinek
Nathalie Martinek, PhD, helps people build relational leadership capacity and cultivate effective relationships in professional life, while also supporting those who’ve been scapegoated, sidelined, or harmed in environments that protect image over people. As a coach, she works with professionals to shift unhelpful relational patterns and navigate subtle power dynamics. As a group facilitator, she creates spaces for learning, applied reflection, and restoration. As a consultant, she helps individuals make sense of workplace dysfunction and emerge intact, with insight into the system and how to move forward. Her approach draws on years of practice inside and alongside institutions, informed by an early career in developmental biology and cancer research, where she studied how environments shape behaviour and how systems enable dysfunction. Nathalie writes and teaches on scapegoating, narcissistic systems, relational leadership, and the emotional forces that shape them. She is the author of The Little Book of Assertiveness, The Scapegoating Playbook at Work, and creator of Hacking Narcissism on Substack.


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Welcome to a soulful, candid conversation with experienced coach Donna Trebilcock who is, without a doubt, one of the wisest and most passionate people leaders I have ever met, working in service of a one-of-a-kind brave, norm-bending organisation: Chorus.
Together, we explore how deliberately developmental principles are being put into practice within Chorus — through redefining leadership, cultivating collective responsibility, and fostering environments where people can grow into their next developmental edge, but also Donna’s own journey or vertical development and the way it has enabled her to hold space for others’ growth. Donna invites us to a space where raw vulnerability is balanced with practical insights, offering a window into what it really takes to build a developmental organization while becoming a developmental person.
If you are in any shape and form involved in leading people or leading people functions, or perhaps coaching or facilitating the growth of people in work contexts, this episode is not to be missed.
Episode Summary
* [00:00:00] Introduction to Donna Trebilcock
* Donna’s background and coaching approach.
* Introduction to Chorus as a self-managing, purpose-driven organization.
* [00:03:00] The Reality of Developmental Work
* How personal and organisational growth journeys are intertwined
* [00:10:00] Identity and Developmental Transition
* The inner struggle: “Who am I if I’m not indispensable?”
* Donna’s transition from Achiever to Redefining and coaching as a turning point.
* [00:18:00] The Role of Experimentation in Developmental Leadership
* Concrete team-level experiments (e.g., peer feedback in meetings).
* Removing top-down control creates empowered, engaged teams.
* [00:23:00] Inside the Chorus Experiment
* Chorus’ unique model: flat, no hierarchy, no job titles.
* Internal coaching evolving from performance focus to deep developmental work.
* [00:28:00] Leading Without Authority
* Challenges of influence without power.
* Coaching as key to growing leadership capacity at all levels.
* [00:31:00] Democratizing Power and Accountability
* Playbooks co-created by staff.
* Agreement-making frameworks that anticipate and hold conflict.
* [00:35:00] Impact and Outcomes
* Increased engagement, innovation, autonomy.
* Vertical development becoming core to the culture.
* [00:38:00] Growth Labs and Organizational Learning
* Development becoming embedded across onboarding, meetings, and eventually recruitment.
* Creating local autonomy and minimizing centralized enabling functions.
* [00:43:00] The Messiness of Developmental Work
* Dealing with legacy structures and culture.
* Compassion and patience as foundational mindsets.
* [00:48:00] When Empowerment Pushes Back
* Confronting the discomfort of power being questioned.
* Walking the talk as a leadership team, even when it’s hard.
* [00:51:00] Slowing Down to Speed Up
* Developmental debriefs in high-pressure times.
* Counterintuitive moves to nurture sustainable growth.
* [00:55:00] Donna’s Advice to Her Earlier Self
* Expect and embrace the mess.
* Compassion for self and others is essential fuel.
* [00:59:00] Hope and the Ripple Effect
* Recognising human potential and the messy, gritty, real work of making the world better.
Guest Bio: Donna Trebilcock
Donna is a certified Executive, Organisational, and Systems Coach specialising in leadership and team development through a vertical (adult development) lens. She supports leaders and teams to grow in complexity, strengthen relationships, and navigate meaningful change — especially in progressive, self-managing, or values-led organisations.With deep experience coaching individuals and teams at all levels, she brings a grounded, developmental approach to building high-performing, purpose-driven cultures. She works in close partnership with clients to co-create coaching engagements that meet them where they are and support their most important goals.Donna’s practice is shaped by ongoing professional development and lived experience in complex, adaptive organisational systems. She is passionate about the real work of leadership — cultivating the inner capacity to lead amidst uncertainty, build trust, and grow collective intelligence.Key qualifications and tools Donna brings to coaching partnerships include: • Certified in Executive, Organisational and Relationship Systems Coaching • Leadership Maturity Profile (LMP) accredited • Leadership Circle Profile (LCP) 360-degree accredited • ORSC (Organisation & Relationship Systems Coaching) trained • NLP Practitioner • CILCA360 accredited • Shifting Horizons Advanced Practitioner Certified • Expert workshop design and facilitation (from small teams to whole systems) • Experienced in large-scale transformation and public sector environments
Dive deeper
I hope you’ve enjoyed this podcast. If you are curious to dive more deeply into learning about Vertical Development and how it might impact your work and life, check out our online library of webinars and courses accredited by the International Coaching Federation. If you choose to become a paid subscriber to this substack you will receive complimentary access to all our webinars and 50% discount on our long-form online programs.
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If you want to bring your bit to building a wiser, more conscious world, I hope you share this article with others who could benefit from the learning.
and, if you haven’t done it yet, Subscribe!
Join your nerdy community and let’s keep on staying curious and learning from each other


Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe

For this episode, I sat down with researcher, coach, and lifelong explorer Heather Frost to dive into her fascinating work on the concept of self. From global travel to coaching, psychology and philosophy, Heather shares how her journey led her to ask one of life’s most fundamental questions: What is the Self? Together, we unpack the difference between self-concept and the Concept of Self, explore how different understandings of self shape behaviour and identity, and consider what this all means for coaching, adult development, and how we relate to each other. I hope you leave this conversation with a new perspective on yourself and with renewed curiosity about the complexity and beauty of our minds.
Episode Summary
00:00 – 05:30 | Origins of the Inquiry into SelfHeather’s lifelong curiosity about how people make sense of themselves, shaped by travel, philosophy, coaching, and neuroscience.
05:30 – 10:30 | Embracing UncertaintyImmersive travel as a practice of “not knowing” — cultivating openness, resilience, and a fluid sense of self.
10:30 – 15:30 | How Not-Knowing Changes UsAlis and Heather explore how dislocation and risk can deepen self-awareness and transform identity.
15:30 – 23:00 | Kindness, Openness, and HumilityExposure to difference builds compassion and dissolves rigid identity boundaries.
23:00 – 31:00 | Defining Terms: Self-Concept vs. Concept of SelfClear distinction:
* Self-concept = beliefs about who I am
* Concept of self = what I think the “self” is
31:00 – 39:00 | The 3 Spectrums of SelfHeather’s research reveals three key dimensions:
* Stability – Is self constant or evolving?
* Unity vs. Multiplicity – One self or many?
* Thoughts-as-Self vs. Thoughts-as-Patterns
39:00 – 44:30 | Why This Matters in CoachingThe Concept of Self influences agency, decision-making, and behaviour change. Coaches must listen for clues in the client's language.
44:30 – 54:00 | Adapting Coaching ApproachesTailor your methods: future visualisation works for stable self-views; emergent experiments work better for fluid self-views.
54:00 – 1:01:00 | Reframing Limiting BeliefsNo “right” way to view the self — ask: Does this belief serve the client in their context?
1:01:00 – 1:08:00 | Links to Adult DevelopmentLater developmental stages often correlate with fluid, multi-part understandings of self — but nuance and fit matter more than hierarchy.
1:08:00 – 1:13:00 | Practice for CoachesReflect on your own concept of self. Tune into how your clients relate to Self — and coach accordingly.
1:13:00 – End | Final ReflectionsHeather’s hope: deeper awareness of how we understand “self” can foster more compassionate, skillful coaching — and a more tolerant world.
Guest Bio: Heather Frost
Heather is the Founder and Director of People and Practice, Co-founder of Think Perspective and Visiting Tutor at Henley Business School. She has over 20 years of experience of experience in behaviour change; coaching, mentoring, training, and consulting to clients including Deloitte, Oxentia, Accenture and Kantar. Deeply driven to understand different cultures and the systems that influence behaviour, Heather has lived as a resident in four countries and travelled extensively to over forty countries. Her commercial work with organisations, executives, leaders, and teams incorporates her global experience and expertise in culture change, business transformation, learning and development, organisational development, leadership development, and systemic change.
Heather holds a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology (BPsych) with a minor in Philosophy, a Master of Science in Coaching & Behavioural Change (MSc) and is currently a Doctoral Researcher (PhD) in Leadership, Organisations and Behaviour at Henley Business School. Heather won a fully funded scholarship through the Henley Business School flagship "World of Work" award. Heather's research and coaching focuses on the link between self-awareness, meta-cognition, consciousness, sense of agency, quality of thought, beliefs, culture, purpose, and behaviour: ultimately how individuals "act" and behave. Her newly developed psychological scale which measures the Concept-of-Self, upcoming published work, writing, and training helps coaches understand how their “self” and the self of their client’s manifest and interact. Her research explores practitioner self-deception, bias and self-delusion, the self-as-instrument, mindfulness, neuroscience and meaning in life.
Heather is a certified Lumina Learning Practitioner, an accredited coach with the International Coaching Federation (ACC) and a Senior Practitioner with the European Mentoring & Coaching Council (EMCC). She holds the following certifications from INSEAD: Leading Organisations in Disruptive Times, Innovation in the Age of Disruption, Strategy in the Age of Digital Disruption and Leading in a Transforming World. She is a Certified Six Sigma Green Belt from PMI (CSSGB). Heather is also an Advanced Practitioner of Breakthrough Coaching (WBECS/coaching.com) and a Visiting Tutor at Henley Business School teaching the triple-accredited Professional Certificate of Executive Coaching (PCEC).
Dive deeper
I hope you’ve enjoyed this podcast. If you are curious to dive more deeply into learning about Vertical Development and how it might impact your work and life, check out our online library of webinars and courses accredited by the International Coaching Federation. If you choose to become a paid subscriber to this substack you will receive complimentary access to all our webinars and 50% discount on our long-form online programs. Also, until the 30th of March, we offer our ICF-accredited certification program - “Vertical Development Practices for Coaches” at 30% discount.
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If you want to bring your bit to building a wiser, more conscious world, I hope you share this article with others who could benefit from the learning.
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Join your nerdy community and let’s keep on staying curious and learning from each other


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Through my work, I have been immensely lucky to meet some exceptional humans who have inspired me, taught me precious lessons of wisdom and even offered me the most precious gift of all: their friendship. This episode features one of these remarkable people: Samantha Kropff.
Sam shares with us her journey from being a forensic investigator to becoming a leader and later a leadership development expert and the accompanying transformation she experienced in her work and life. She vulnerably shares the ups and downs of her growth - revelations, setbacks, hard-won lessons and the courageous choice to push herself out of her comfort zone again and again.
Samantha is an inspiring example for every woman who has ever had to find her voice and step into her leadership power, especially when working in male-dominated environments. She is also an advocate for the value of vertical development as a life practice, showing us how incredibly beautiful and painfully messy the journey of human growth can actually be.
Episode Summary:
* [00:05:30] Sam’s Background: Sam’s career and personal journey towards vertical development.
* [00:15:45] Redefining vs. Transforming: Differences between the lived experience of Redefining and Transforming. See this previous episode of The Developmental for an overview of the stages of development.
* [00:25:00] Sam’s Career Change and Identity Shift
* [00:35:00] Relationship with Time: Evolving from a linear to a flexible perspective on time.
* [00:45:15] Integrating Shadow Aspects: Importance of integrating shadow aspects in personal growth.
* [00:55:00] Organizational Change Challenges: Challenges in pushing for change as the chair of a culture reform committee.
* [01:05:00] The Role of Discomfort in Growth: Discomfort as a catalyst for vertical development.
* [01:14:00] Closing Thoughts: Final reflections on vertical growth's impact on individuals and organizations.
Guest Bio: Samantha Kropff
Samantha Kropff is a Manager of Leadership Development in NSW Government and also a leadership coach. Samantha has spent her career working in government organisations both in Leadership Development and also as a technical specialist. Samantha is an experienced executive coach, having coached senior police leaders both across Australia as well as 8 international police agencies over the past 4 years.
Samantha started her career as a Forensic Investigator working both nationally and internationally on commonwealth police investigations. Working to dismantle global organised criminal syndicates and also helping Australian citizens or those overseas during times of crisis, such as Timor-Leste to help during civil unrest, deploying to Netherlands to assist with the investigation of the downing of MH17, or deploying interstate to help with fatal bushfires.
Samantha transitioned from investigating crime to using her investigative skills to explore what influences leadership behaviours, and how to support leaders to grow and development, not just as a leader but as a human being. She can see the exponential impact leaders can have on others and organisations, and it is her passion to find ways to support current and aspiring leaders to be the best versions of themselves.
Samantha works with vertical leadership development in her coaching practice and as a leader herself. She is a living example of applying the tool to herself for her own growth and works with leaders who want to do the same. She is especially passionate about supporting female leaders to let go of the conditioning that keeps them small and support them to feel safe to be seen and reach more of their leadership potential.
You can read more about Sam’s work on her website: https://www.skleadership.com.au
Dive deeper
I hope you’ve enjoyed this podcast. If you are curious to dive more deeply into learning about Vertical Development and how it might impact your work and life, check out our online library of webinars and courses accredited by the International Coaching Federation.
Spread the word…
If you want to bring your bit to building a wiser, more conscious world, I hope you share this article with others who could benefit from the learning.
and, if you haven’t done it yet, Subscribe!
Join your nerdy community and let’s keep on staying curious and learning from each other.



Get full access to Vertical Development: How Grown-ups Grow Up at www.verticaldevelopment.education/subscribe