The Growth Podcast

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Today's Episode
n8n was the most written-about AI tool in this newsletter last year. I covered it 25 times and ranked it A tier, above Zapier and Make.
Then Claude Code and Cowork arrived, the Google Trends line bent downward, and a tweet went around declaring n8n irrelevant.
So today I went to the person with the most to lose.
Jan Oberhauser is the founder and CEO of n8n, last valued at $5.2 billion after SAP's strategic investment. He says n8n has been declared dead roughly a thousand times, including the week OpenAI shipped its own agent builder, which turned out to be one of his best growth weeks ever.
His argument is not that Claude Code is bad. He uses it. His argument is that they are different products and you need both. Claude Code is where you prototype in ten minutes. n8n is where the thing goes once it has to run every night, survive a model outage, pass an audit, and be handed to someone who did not build it.
So he opened the product and showed me. A live agent build, an eight-minute AI assistant run, an approval gate that stops an agent mid-action, and an execution log that shows every decision the agent made.
Then we got into the growth story. 10x revenue in a year. No lead gen target. No per-seat pricing. A goal of a billion users with fewer than a thousand employees.
10 Key takeaways
1. Claude Code and n8n are different products, and you need both - Claude Code runs Anthropic models in your terminal as an agentic tool. n8n is the orchestration layer connecting your tools, models and data sources on a visual canvas. Jan's own users prototype in Claude Code and migrate to n8n once the workflow has to be reliable.
2. Reliability is fallback models, self-hosting and maintained integrations - Every provider goes down, so you set a fallback model inside the same workflow. You can self-host next to your own data. Each integration is code n8n writes and maintains, so an API change gets fixed once for everyone instead of separately by every builder.
3. Auditability is the thing generated code cannot give you - With code you see the input and the output and nothing in between. n8n replays every past execution step by step, with the data going in and out of each node, and lets you rerun half a workflow from a single data point.
4. AI plus deterministic logic plus human in the loop - An if statement is cheaper, faster and 100% reliable, so it belongs next to the model rather than being replaced by it. Destructive actions sit behind an approval gate, so the agent asks before it sends the email or books the meeting.
5. The AI assistant builds the workflow for you - Jan prompted it the way you would prompt Claude Code. It asked clarifying questions, thought for eight minutes, and returned a working multi-tool agent. Extending it with one-on-one scheduling and Google Contacts took another five.
6. Start small, and skip AI when you do not need it - Companies that try to transform everything at once spend weeks building the wrong thing. Jan's favorite example is a company that automated employee password resets and saved multiple full-time employees a year. The small wins are also the ones that get colleagues interested.
7. n8n wins wherever the work is business-critical - Security orchestration, compliance, employee onboarding and offboarding, DevOps, monitoring. The rule Jan gives is that the more reliability and security matter, the better n8n fits, which covers nearly everything that is not a personal use case.
8. Sprinkling AI on top gets 10 to 30%, being in the value chain gets 10x - Adding an AI button somewhere is not a strategy. n8n's bet was that when someone decides to build an agent, they build it in n8n. That choice is what produced 10x growth in a year.
9. Deleting the metrics that would make money faster - No lead gen target and no per-seat pricing, because profitability means n8n can think in years instead of quarters. The company does not push free self-hosted users onto paid hosting either. The internal goal moved from a billion in ARR to a billion users so nobody confuses the mission with money.
10. Talent density over headcount - The target is a billion users with fewer than a thousand employees, which keeps the hiring bar high. Jan wants tinkerers who run home automation and understand scale, evals and reliability. Live problem-solving beats take-home tasks now that AI can do the take-home for you.
Go Deeper
Build your first n8n workflow with Pawel Huryn’s guide.
Then follow Mahesh Yadav’s learning path in How to Become a Builder PM. Prototype your next agent there, and promote it into n8n through the MCP server.
Write 20 test cases and run them as an eval.
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Today’s episode
I wrote a PRD using ChatGPT, with a considerable number of iterations, and gave it to the CEO of Zapier to grade.
In 2024, that PRD would have killed in any product review.
But Wade Foster called it a little old-fashioned.
In 2026, the work that made you look smart in 2024 is now the bare minimum. Shopify, Meta, and Microsoft have all tied AI to employee evaluations.
Zapier took it a notch higher and published a whole rubric on AI fluency. Then reintroduced another one just 10 months later!
Read the complete update here.
Wade co-founded Zapier and took it to a $5B valuation on roughly $1.4M of venture money. His rubric is the one a lot of companies have modeled their own on.
So I got him to share his grading structure live. If you want to know where you’d be when your company starts grading, I got you.
Key takeaways
1. Basic AI use is the floor, not the bar - Summarizing, drafting, looking things up and generating a basic PRD are table stakes at Zapier in 2026. Everything above that line needs structured, reusable systems for specs, prototypes and research. Wade is looking for people operating at a meaningfully higher level than the tool's default.
2. Adaptive is where the curve should sit - Zapier wants most PMs at adaptive most of the time, with one transformative example to point to. Living at transformative full time means you are tuning your systems instead of shipping. Gaps in the capable band are normal, even for strong PMs.
3. Transformative means an n of one - Wade's bar is that you are the first person doing a new thing and figuring it out as you go. On a team of 30 to 40 PMs, that is roughly one rating a half. He grades his own fluency as adaptive in most places and admits he steals his transformative tactics from his team.
4. You should be ahead of your CEO inside your own discipline - Wade's rule of thumb is that he should be behind his PMs on PM-specific AI fluency. When he spots a technique that is obvious to him and new to the PM, he gets nervous. You breathe this every day and he does not.
5. Never stop at the PRD - A document alone reads old-fashioned in 2026. Fire up a coding agent and build the prototype, even though production code is not the PM's job. A picture is worth a thousand words and a prototype is worth ten of those.
6. Evidence got cheap, so there is no excuse - Sift Gong calls, Zendesk tickets, subreddits, LinkedIn and X before asking anyone for buy-in. AI makes a mountain of sources searchable in the time it used to take to read a handful. The buy-in conversation now happens after you have proof, not before you start.
7. Judgment separates a turbo brain from a slop cannon - AI plus judgment looks like watching a new species get invented. AI without judgment generates so much noise that it is harder to work with than a teammate who uses no AI at all. At least that person is quiet.
8. Label the effort level when you share AI-assisted work - Say whether you skimmed it once or stand behind every sentence. Handing over unreviewed output just moves the judgment onto the reader. Speed is a fine reason to share something rough, as long as you say it is rough.
9. The job shifts from doing tasks to auditing the factory - When agents handle spec, prototype, eval and first-draft code, your job is to ask why the machine produced a bad batch, not to fix widgets by hand. Where the human gates go is the design question nobody has solved. Wade sees teams still scratching their heads on the loop design.
10. The new no-code is code, and the user is now the agent - Wade's daily brief runs on generated code he has never read and does not care about. Zapier's bet is deterministic execution in the cloud, so workflows run reliably without burning tokens or keeping a laptop open. If your software cannot run headless, you are swimming against the current.
Go Deeper
If you ask me, start by shipping your first pull request. Then learn loops to automate your repetitive tasks. Give your system a memory on Claude Code or Hermes or OpenClaw. Then version everything you build for PMs on GitHub. You can also bring the whole org on the same page with an all-in-one team OS. And once the system is running, build your first eval, as auditing is the whole point here.
I’ll see you in the next one :)
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Today’s Episode
90% of teams have adopted AI, yet 56% of CEOs say they saw no major financial benefit. Both metrics are accurate, and I’m pretty sure you fall somewhere between them.
With new AI tools flooding the market every week, it is safe to say that every team has its own AI setup by now. But are any of those setups in sync with each other?
I’ve been building this argument in stages. First, Carl Vellotti showed you how to build a personal OS, and Hannah layered it with building a team OS. Jiaona and Mikhail vouch for a full-blown company OS as well.
So, today you get a screen share.
My guests are the product team at Together AI that raised $800M at an $8.3B valuation and sells inference and fine-tuning to developers. Charles Zedlewski is their CPO who brought Necoline, Pavneet, and Hassan on the call to talk about how to build a shared context repo.
Their customers are already agents and their engineers are already agent-first. Their product team had no choice but to catch up.
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10 Key takeaways
1. Individual productivity can move a company backwards - The team's starting question was not how to make each person faster. It was whether everyone generating unlimited code and content actually added up to progress. Charles called the failure mode flooding your coworkers' context windows, where everyone launches slop at each other.
2. The shared repo holds context and skills, not code - Markdown and YAML files covering customer intelligence, sandboxes, and the output of strategy meetings broken down by mission and milestone. Anything tied to a specific codebase stays out of it. The point is that a PM can read another team's context and draft a real proposal before taking up that PM's time.
3. Skills live closest to the work they touch - If a skill references code inside one team's repo, it stays colocated there. Everything else goes to a personal or shared repo. Test it on a branch, use it a few times, and only push to main once it proves repeatable. Niche ones never get pushed.
4. Shared context is a hierarchy, not a flat pool - The team abandoned the idea that everyone should carry everyone's context. Most people have no motivation to learn the depth of someone else's area. They want the one answer they came for. Some people live at the bottom of the hierarchy, most just traverse the top.
5. The PRD stopped being a gate - Historically it was the document everyone aligned on before building started. Together treats it as a trigger for ideation and problem solving instead. One to two pages, defining the customer problem, a few solution options, and a sample user journey. That is enough to argue about whether the thing is worth building.
6. A prototype replaces the bulk of the long document - A separate skill takes the one pager and produces a prompt for a design tool, and that visual is where the sharpest feedback shows up, from engineering and marketing alike.
7. Discovery collapsed from half a day to five minutes - The research agent pulls from the support platform, the project tracker, and internal docs at once. It surfaced 19 tickets filed in two months, flagged that the feature had been partially built and abandoned, and gave verbatim quotes with sources. The value is not the summary. It is not duplicating work someone already started.
8. Automate execution, keep decisions human - Defining the feature, the API surface area, and the abstraction layer stay hands on. Code writing is the part that runs on its own. The PRD skill is explicitly instructed to challenge the PM's assumptions rather than accept them.
9. Agents are already the majority user, so validate for them - Agent evals spins up a sandbox, gives an agent a real task against the product, and watches. It caught that agents could not find the fine-tunable models page because it was not linked from the quick start. Dozens of docs fixes came out of this. Charles calls agent success the new bar for UX.
10. They refused to oversell the gains - No story points, so no proof, but velocity is up more than 5%. Charles finds 3x claims suspicious, because discovery, debate, and coordination do not get magically better with AI. Costs stayed sane partly through open weight models, partly because optimizing for collective output never produced the runaway token budgets others report.
Go Deeper
As promised, I put together this section to help you become the best version in your product management journey. If you’re starting from zero on this, begin with How to build a Team OS in Claude Code with Hannah Stulberg, then scale it up with How to build a Company Operating System with Hermes and OpenClaw. For the skills layer specifically, 3x CPO Oji Udezue on the Essential Claude Skills for PMs is the one to read. And if section 3 sold you on agent evals, go to How to Build Frontier-Lab Quality Evals with Daniel McKinnon. Finally, Pavneet’s take on the one-page PRD lines up almost exactly with what Srini Raghavan showed from Freshworks.
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If you want to advertise, please email - productgrowthppp[at]gmail[dot]com.


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Today’s episode
Most PMs have automated something with AI by now. A PRD review. A weekly status update. The problem is that every session starts from scratch.
Loops are what fix that. A skill that runs the same way forever is just a skill. A skill that takes the log of what happened and rewrites itself is a loop. Everyone keeps saying loops are the new prompts. Almost nobody shows you how to build one.
Tyler Folkman is Chief AI Officer and Head of Product at JobNimbus. In this episode he builds a loop live on screen. He runs a preflight check on his own podcast recording, spins up three prototype variants while answering questions, writes a decision skill from scratch, and closes the loop on camera.
He also covers the loops every PM should be running, the hooks that stop Claude from doing real damage, and the point where vibe PMing breaks.
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10 Key takeaways
1. A skill becomes a loop when you feed the learning back. A static skill sits there and stays the same forever. The loop closes when you hand the AI the log of the whole session and ask what to improve. Skip that step and you are just running a skill.2. The gate is the most important part of the loop. Fetch inputs, do work, pass a gate, write the artifact. The gate is where you validate the work was correct, and making it deterministic matters more than anything else in the chain.
3. Agents make decisions, prompts wait for you. The difference is not the model. An agent gets a task plus a way to verify itself and executes as far as it can alone. Prompting keeps you in the loop, which caps how far you can scale yourself.
4. Write the first version of a skill by hand. Human authored skills tend to beat AI authored ones because you know more about what you actually want. Once you are on the AI loop it moves fast enough that injecting your own thinking gets hard, like promising you will still pedal on an ebike.
5. In product, the gate is a customer, and that breaks the loop. Code loops run fast because the gate is a test. You cannot lock customers in a room and iterate on them. The workaround is mining the research calls and transcripts you already have to build a cheap first filter.
6. Prototypes are free now, so generate variants instead of one answer. The internal standard is at least three variants per idea. One minimal, one full featured, one creative. Then narrow a hundred ideas down to five before anyone talks to a real customer.
7. Synthetic customers filter, real customers decide. Customer research transcripts loaded into a warehouse let AI inspect a prototype as your customer. It is not a high bar, but it catches low hanging failures fast, which is the whole point of a gate.
8. Write docs for AI, keep human docs to three pages. Part of onboarding is not written for people to read. It is context so the AI can answer questions. Anything a human is expected to read should be one to three pages, visual, and cut down by hand.
9. Hooks add determinism that a prompt cannot. Telling Claude never to delete everything or never to share credentials only works if it reads that instruction today. A hook fires on the bash command itself. Session close hooks can also force the improvement step you would otherwise forget.
10. Ship AI output you have not thought about and it costs you. Passing unreviewed AI work up the chain just moves the effort to someone busier than you. Answering a question in a meeting with what Claude said is the failure mode. Use AI to push your thinking, not to replace the part where you do it.
Related Content
If you don't know where to start on Claude loops, I got you covered with my ultimate guide on Loops for PMs. And then you can follow it up with The Complete PM Guide to /goal in Claude Code. Tyler mentioned the evolving role of PMs and how it is shifting into a Product Builder role, so you can read all about it in my How to Become a Builder PM deep dive.
If you want to advertise, please email productgrowthppp[at]gmail[dot]com. 
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Today’s episode
Today I’m showing you how to build a company operating system, with Mikhail Shcheglov, CPO at OLX Classifieds.
After 5 months of continuous building on OpenClaw and Hermes, his entire product team now runs on it.
His knowledge graph covers 54% of the company's product, business and customer context. That is a number he tracks as a personal KPI. At that level the agent already makes backlog decisions. Stakeholders pitch feature requests to it before they’re allowed near a PM. It runs his email, his calendar, his recruiting funnel and his design system.
He opens his IDE on camera and shows all of it. 2 findings cut against everything you’ve been told. Summarizing your meeting transcripts costs you 20-25% recall, so he stores every single one raw. And letting Hermes write its own skills off repeated tasks produced a 31% accuracy lift in controlled testing.
We also get into something heavier than architecture.
What happens to PM headcount when one PM covers four domains? And what does a CPO actually screen for now when hiring?
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Key Takeaways
Context coverage is a CPO level KPI - Mikhail tracks what percentage of the company's industry, business model and customer knowledge his agent actually holds. It sits at 54%. That is enough for it to operate like a junior to mid PM and make backlog calls. At 70 to 90% he expects strategy level work.
The real problem AI solves is knowledge leakage - A domain expert leaves and takes five years of context with them. Every company has this hole and almost nobody measures it. One store of business, customer, product and technical knowledge closes it, and the better your AI knows that context the more you can hand it.
Do not summarize your transcripts - Summarization cost them 20 to 25% recall. You lose the granular detail where the answer usually lives, and you force every conversation into a template it was never shaped like. Store everything raw.
Memory needs three layers, not one - A knowledge graph for structure, a vector database for fuzzy retrieval, and raw daily transcripts in MD files. Exact keyword matching fails on most real queries because real questions are ambiguous. The vector layer carries the load.
Auto generated skills lifted recall by 31% - Hermes watches what you keep asking for and decides on its own that a skill is worth writing. Tested across five core topics with ten questions each, control group against treatment group. Plus 31% accuracy.
Imperatives matter more than prompts - Their rules file runs 700 lines. No fabrications. Think before you act. Facts over guesswork. And a ban on what he calls fake helpful, where the agent can't do the thing so it explains how you could do it yourself.
CLAUDE.md stays short, SOUL.md goes long - CLAUDE.md holds under 100 lines and carries the highest priority. SOUL.md runs 800 and sits second. Some of those 800 lines contradict each other and it still produces his most accurate output, because every imperative gets tested against real queries.
Make the agent the gatekeeper - Stakeholders are trained to pitch the agent first. It asks clarifying questions, checks the request against priorities already set, declines politely if it doesn't clear the bar, and routes it to the right PM if it does. The org chart is mapped internally so it knows who owns what.
Half of PM time is process, not thinking - Weekly reports, stakeholder updates, demos. Delegate that layer and one PM does the work of two, pointed entirely at discovery. He now runs one PM across three or four customer facing domains, and only keeps dedicated owners on monetization and search.
Own the agent yourself or lose the advantage - Feedback arrives daily and he pushes changes from his phone straight into the repo. Hand it to an AI ops hire or an engineering team and you keep the tool but lose the speed. Nobody without skin in the game iterates fast enough.
Related content
I’ve already created all of the resources Mikhail mentioned in this episode. But I never mapped them all to one place. That changes today in this edition. PFA the map sorted by the parts you want to build.
Memory first, I Built You Memory for Claude Code, Hermes and OpenClaw
Once you've got a memory layer, put it in version control. GitHub for PMs has the 3-repo setup I use for skills and eval
The Hermes Agent Guide for PMs is a 20-minute setup and a 30-day rollout with persona and skill templates included
For OpenClaw, start with Mahesh Yadav on becoming a Builder PM
For the org-wide version, watch my episode with Jiaona Zhang, CPO at Laurel, on building a Company OS
My conversation with Hannah Stulberg of DoorDash on building a Team OS is the same thing one floor down, with a free starter kit
👨‍💻 Where to find Mikhail Shcheglov:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scheglovm1/
Substack: https://corpwaters.substack.com/
👨‍💻 Where to find Aakash:
Twitter: https://x.com/aakashgupta
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aagupta/
Newsletter: https://www.news.aakashg.com/
If you want to advertise, email productgrowthppp@gmail.com.


This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.news.aakashg.com/subscribe