Lead From the Heart

Jen Fisher is a pioneering leader in workplace well-being and human-centered leadership. She became the first Chief Well–being Officer at Deloitte US, creating a role that, as far as we know, no other major company in the world had ever established. In that role, she helped reshape how one of the largest professional services firms approaches employee wellbeing, connection, and sustainable performance, demonstrating that supporting people isn’t optional — it’s essential to leadership and organizational success.

Her new book, Hope IS The Strategy, builds on these experiences, reframing hope not as a soft or sentimental concept, but as a practical, strategic tool leaders can use to guide teams, foster resilience, and drive meaningful change in the workplace.

In this conversation, Jen shares her personal journey from relentless overwork and burnout — long hours, constant emails, and defining her worth by productivity — to a life and career guided by wellbeing and intentional leadership. We explore why so many high achievers fall into the trap of tying value to output, and how leaders can cultivate cultures that truly support people, elevate resilience, and inspire connection.

We also dive into hope as a leadership strategy: why it matters, how it can be developed in teams, and what it looks like in practice when leaders prioritize wellbeing.

Jen offers practical guidance for creating humane workplaces, making employee well-being a shared responsibility, and leading with empathy, clarity, and heart. For anyone seeking to transform their approach to leadership, culture, and performance, this episode provides both candid stories and actionable insights.

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How can leaders use emotional intelligence to create workplaces where employees flourish? We explore the science and practice of emotional wisdom, examining how leaders can harness the interplay between emotion and reason to foster well-being, connection, and high performance in their teams.

Josh Freedman, named one of the top 50 management and leadership experts by Inc. Magazine, is a global authority on emotions and emotional intelligence. He has spent decades helping leaders develop the skills to better understand themselves and connect with their teams.

In our wonderful conversation, Josh reveals the “secret power” most leaders overlook: emotional intelligence — more specifically, the ability to understand and harness emotions in oneself and others to drive connection, well-being, and performance.

Josh’s new book, Emotion Rules: The Science and Practice of Emotional Wisdom, provides a practical roadmap for leaders who want to apply emotional intelligence to improve both individual and organizational performance. Drawing on decades of research and practice, the book challenges the myth that great leaders are cool, detached, and relentlessly rational. Instead, Josh shows that emotion and reason are deeply intertwined — and that understanding this interplay is essential for effective leadership.

Our conversation explores the idea that humans aren’t strictly rational beings, as highlighted by New York Times columnist David Brooks, who recently described our minds as “swirls” — dynamic, interconnected systems where emotion and reason are inseparable. Josh explains why this framing is critical for leaders who want to support employee well-being. We also examine how historical and cultural myths have shaped the way business views emotion, and what leaders can do to shift these outdated perspectives.

Practical skills for leaders are a key focus. Josh shares how to connect with one’s own feelings, reflect on emotional data, and act with presence. He introduces the TFA Triangle, showing how Thoughts, Feelings, and Actions interact, and how understanding this helps leaders respond more effectively to employees, especially during times of stress or change.

Josh explains emotional contagion and how leaders shape the overall culture and atmosphere of their teams. He also addresses one of today’s most pressing organizational challenges: burnout, explaining why it is driven more by unmet emotional needs than logistics — and what leaders can do to prevent it and support their teams.

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One of our all-time favorite guests, Daniel Coyle returns for a timely and thought-provoking conversation on human flourishing, belonging, and what leaders often misunderstand about employee well-being.

Coyle is widely known for his ability to translate rigorous research into clear, actionable insights for leaders, and seven years ago, he joined us to discuss The Culture Code – an episode that has gone on to be one of the most downloaded conversations in our show’s history.

Daniel is back with a new book, Flourish: The Art of Building Meaning, Joy, and Fulfillment, which challenges conventional thinking about well-being at work. Rather than focusing on individual habits, resilience training, or wellness initiatives, Coyle explores the deeper relational and environmental conditions that allow people to thrive together. The core premise is deceptively simple but deeply disruptive: flourishing is not something people achieve alone.

Coyle argues that individuals become their fullest selves through meaningful relationships and through a felt sense of belonging to something larger than themselves. For leaders, this reframes well-being as an outcome of culture—not a program to be managed. Trust, connection, and shared purpose matter more than perks, and leadership behavior plays a decisive role in shaping whether those conditions exist.

The discussion also examines a defining paradox of modern work: people are more digitally connected than ever, yet increasingly isolated. Coyle explains how many workplaces unintentionally undermine the conditions required for real connection—and how leaders often reinforce this through excessive control, speed, and over-reliance on hierarchy.

Insights are drawn from unexpected places, including a trust-building practice used by a basketball coach at Penn State University, a powerful moment of collective reflection led by Fred “Mr.” Rogers, and a community that consistently produces Olympic athletes. Together, these examples point toward a more humane model of leadership—one centered on humility, shared ownership, and creating the conditions where people can truly flourish.

This is a conversation for leaders who sense that something essential is missing in today’s workplaces—and who are ready to rethink how connection, trust, and meaning are actually built. It offers a compelling reminder that when leaders focus on creating the right conditions, well-being and performance don’t compete—they reinforce one another.

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Some organizations have no heart at all. The best have three!

That’s the thesis of the new book, The Octopus Organization: A Guide to Thriving in a World of Continuous Transformation, co-authored by our guests, Phil Le Brun and Jana Werner. Both work with leaders operating at global scale—Phil as an Executive in Residence at Amazon Web Services, and Jana as a Global Executive Advisor at AWS—helping organizations navigate complexity, change, and continuous transformation.

In their book, Phil and Jana introduce a clear contrast between what they call Tin Man organizations and Octopus organizations. Tin Man organizations are rigid, highly centralized, and overly dependent on a small group of decision-makers at the top. Like the character in The Wizard of Oz, they operate with structure but no heart. Decision-making slows, intelligence gets trapped in the hierarchy, and employees often wait for direction rather than contributing meaningfully.

Octopus organizations, by contrast, are alive with three hearts. They are intelligent, adaptive, and responsive. A strong central purpose keeps everyone aligned, but authority and decision-making are distributed to the people closest to the work. Teams are empowered to sense, decide, and act, allowing the organization to learn, adapt, and thrive in real time.

A central contribution of the book is the identification of what Phil and Jana call organizational “anti-patterns”—recurring leadership behaviors and systems that feel reasonable in the moment but consistently undermine clarity, trust, cohesion, and performance. These patterns exist even in organizations with talented people and strong intentions.

In this episode, we explore several anti-patterns in depth: the lack of clarity that leaves people guessing what truly matters; the overuse of corporate jargon that creates distance and mistrust; purpose statements that are words on a page rather than guides for behavior; and cultures that elevate individual stars at the expense of cohesive, high-performing teams. We also discuss why fast, open information flow is essential for adaptability and well-being.

Phil and Jana also reconfirm our own understanding that well-being cannot be created through perks or programs—it emerges from how people are treated, trusted, and empowered, and how work is designed and decisions flow. For leaders who care about performance, well-being, and building more humane organizations, this episode offers practical insight into creating workplaces that truly thrive.

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For decades, Wall Street has rewarded short-term thinking: layoffs, cost-cutting, and squeezing employees. Let’s be honest, investors have never been concerned about workers or their well-being.

But that era is ending.

David Van Adelsberg, CEO and co-founder of Irrational Capital (alongside renowned behavioral economist Dan Ariely), has helped produce some of the most rigorous research on the connection between employee well-being and long-term business performance. The work draws on data from thousands of publicly traded companies over more than a decade—and the results are hard to ignore.

Irrational Capital’s research shows that companies ranking in the top 20% for employee well-being significantly outperform those in the bottom 20%—by nearly six percentage points over 11 years. Even more striking, their study proves intrinsic factors like trust, clarity, innovation, and connection are consistently more important drivers of company performance than extrinsic rewards such as pay and benefits.

In other words, caring and supportive leaders matter more than what they pay.

For years, CEOs and boards have nodded toward employee well-being without taking decisive action. Now, with investors and market analysts clearly rewarding companies that get it right, ignoring how people feel at work is no longer optional.

In our conversation, David explains how his research was conducted, what surprised him most, and the practical implications for leadership teams still on the sidelines (not a bright future).

For leaders wanting proof that supporting the human needs in employees is worthwhile, we’ve never had greater information to share.

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