Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

• 457: Ask David: Chasing, Sadness as Celebration, and Autism

  Ask David: Chasing, Commitment Problems Sadness as Celebration Is Autism Increasing?  The answers to today’s questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today’s live podcast discussion with Rhonda, Matt, and David was very energetic and hopefully inspiring for all of you! Today’s questions. Aurora asks about a dating problem—the guy I’m dating doesn’t want to “commit.” What should I do? Ana asks: I’m 48 now, and about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with infertility—a devastating moment for someone who had dreamed of becoming a mother since childhood. Through therapy, prayer, and especially your book Feeling Good, I’ve done deep healing. I truly feel at peace most of the time. My life is full and joyful. But I’ve noticed that certain dates—especially Mother’s Day and Christmas—still bring sadness. Not overwhelming or constant, but a familiar ache that surprises me even now. I use my CBT tools and move through it, but part of me wonders: should I be “over this” by now? Brittany asks: Is autism really on the increase? The following questions will be included in the next Ask David podcast. We did not have time to include them today. Ollie asks: How do you motivate a procrastinating patient to do the hard work of facing the task they’ve been putting off? Owen asks: Should I complete a full Daily Mood Log each day? Owen asks: Is it okay to copy the positive reframing from a previous DML when relevant? Zainab asks: Is friendship a basic human need?   1. Aurora asks about a dating problem—the guy I’m dating doesn’t want to “commit.” What should I do. Hi Doctor Burns, I have been dating a guy exclusively (both only seeing each other) but he doesn’t bring up wanting commitment to being in a relationship. He wants to see me in all his free time but tends to plan dates last minute if he does and assumes we will hang out at his place when we get together. He knows I’d like a relationship but said we are working towards that and that it’s putting unnecessary pressure when I mentioned it. I’m not sure how long to wait and asking directly for what I’d like (him planning dates in advance) doesn’t really help as he quickly got defensive and I then went to using the five secrets. Any advice? Thank you for everything you do, I love your books and podcast so much. They have truly changed my life. You and Rhonda make me smile every day that I listen. If you do by chance use my question would you not include my name? Aurora David’s response Yes we can address this during an Ask David. It’s great timing since we just had several podcasts on dating questions, Quick answer, and we’ll go deeper in the podcast, but it sounds like you’re being a bit too available and letting him use you and take you for granted. Remember the Burns Rule: “People ONLY want what they CAN’T get, and NEVER want what they CAN get!” So being more unavailable, letting him know you have other plans (which may simply be not to see him at the last minute), all the while being sweet. When he says he is not interested in a commitment just now, you can use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and play the role of “shrink,” not “available lady.” Ask him about that, express curiosity, encourage him to talk. These methods (5 secrets) are an art form, spelled out pretty clearly in Feeling Good Together. Pressing him for a commitment is guaranteed to drive him away. You want HIM to be the chaser, and YOU to be the chased. Also, a Daily Mood Log on thoughts that make you anxious about him, and working toward letting go of “needing” him. Warmly, David Aurora responds to David This is amazing Dr. Burns, thank you so very much! I am so humbled you took the time to read my email, use my questions, and give such a helpful reply. And yes how about the name Aurora! Thank you and Rhonda. Your work has truly changed my life and I am so deeply grateful for all you do. Aurora   2. Ana asks about living with infertility. Hi Dr. Burns, I hope you’re well. I had the honor of corresponding with you and Dr. Rhonda last year about my relationship with my mother, and I’m still so grateful for your generosity and the space you gave me on the podcast. Today I write about a different part of my story. I’m 48 now, and about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with infertility—a devastating moment for someone who had dreamed of becoming a mother since childhood. Through therapy, prayer, and especially your book Feeling Good, I’ve done deep healing. I truly feel at peace most of the time. My life is full and joyful. But I’ve noticed that certain dates—especially Mother’s Day and Christmas—still bring sadness. Not overwhelming or constant, but a familiar ache that surprises me even now. I use my CBT tools and move through it, but part of me wonders: should I be “over this” by now? Or is it normal that something so deep still stirs, even after years of healing? I sometimes question whether I’m simply very good at coping (I’m an Enneagram 3—always performing strength) or if there’s still more I need to process, like the moment both of my sisters-in-law announced their pregnancies during the darkest part of my grief 😓💔. But then again, maybe occasional sadness is just part of living with love and loss. Thank you for reading—and for your work, which has meant so much to me. Warmly, Ana David’s Response Hi Ana, My website is a little clunky now, but if you search “Sadness as Celebration” you may find one or more podcasts that address this concept. In simple terms, your sadness is an expression of your love, and your core values as a human being, as a woman. So you might want to continue to experience that  occasional sadness forever. Of course, if it is having a negative effect on your llfe, that would be different, but it doesn’t sound that way. Acceptance, with gratitude, could be one path. Could we use this on an Ask David, with your first name or possibly some other name? In other words, if you could press our Magic Button and “be over it,” would you REALLY want to press that button? What does your sadness say about you and your core values that’s positive, even awesome? Warmly, david Ana replies Dear Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful response. What you said makes so much sense — it’s so wise, so true, and also so simple. I appreciate it deeply. The idea that my sadness is an expression of love and core values feels incredibly freeing. I only wish I didn’t feel guilty or “broken” when these feelings creep in from time to time. Your perspective helps me see them differently — not as setbacks, but as moments of connection with something I’ve loved dearly. Yes, please feel free to use this in an Ask David episode. I’d be honored. You’re welcome to use my first name, Ana. With gratitude, Ana David’s reply Thanks again, Ana. As an aside, you “got it,” I believe. Your sadness is an expression of your love, and likely also makes you more compassionate toward others. And more. The sadness you feel, arguably, is not a “defect,” or something to be defeated, but something beautiful that can be accepted and welcomed. If you think it is “too much,” you can write down your Negative Thoughts and look for distortions, of course. Warmly, david Rhonda suggested that we give the numbers of the podcasts that deal with the interesting topic of “Sadness as Celebration.” They include #s174, 252, 253, and 304 (this last being my experience with loneliness and grief while driving across the Nevada desert as a medical student.)   3. Brittany asks if autism is on the increase? Hi Dr. Burns, I’ve noticed in the last few years the term autism being used much more commonly and now seems to be a broader term. I watched a show last night where an actual autism center was showing their test they use. It was pictures of people’s eyes and you had to guess if they were feeling sad, happy, frustrated, etc. They said autistic people have a hard time telling what others are thinking/feeling. Well I took the quiz and got half wrong. They also described autistic people as being awkward socially, having a hard time adjusting to new surroundings, disliking loud noises. Well that also describes me but by no means would I say I’m autistic. I think they are throwing personal preferences and social anxiety into the umbrella term autism. I know you did that podcast on ADHD where you said you don’t treat ADHD, you treat people. What are your thoughts on the way autism seems to be diagnosed these days? Of course I’m sure you would just treat whatever problem the person wanted to work on, not the so called disorder. But still, do you find it frustrating how often people are deemed to be autistic these days? -Brittany David’s reply I might be a bit autistic, too! Join the club. It's the latest thing, and super broad boundaries, just like you said. And like you said, I treat the person, not the so-called "mental disorder." Also, I did an informal study on shrinks, and they had no idea what patients were feeling even after a two + hour interview with the patient! Warmly, david PS I'll make this another ask David, it's a good one! Rhonda wrote: David:  What do you think of putting the link to the autism facial recognition test in the show notes? Great idea, Rhonda, so here’s the link. Remember, we are not endorsing the validity or reliability of this scale, nor are we recommending it for any medical or psychological assessment! David Check out the Autism Test Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David  

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• 456: Ask David: The Fear of Being Alone or Abandoned. . . and More!

  Ask David: The Fear of Being Abandoned Living with Someone Who's Depressed Can Someone Else's Depression Depress You! The answers to today’s questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today’s questions. Negar asks: How can I overcome my fear of being alone or being abandoned? Stan asks: What are your tips on living with someone suffering from anxiety or depression? They can sometimes be demanding or argumentative! Stan Asks: How can we protects ourselves from not feeling down during and after spending social time with anxious and / or depressed people because they express anxious or depressing thoughts to us. It seems to me that we must start to believe the distorted negative thoughts that the anxious or depressed person transmits to us, so we start to feel the same negative emotions the other person feels.   1. Negar asks: How can I overcome my fear of being alone or being abandoned? Thank you very much You know, doctor, one of the problems I have had since childhood was that I always worry about being alone and losing the people I love. My mind becomes conditioned and a lot of negative obsessive thoughts come to my mind, even the smallest irrelevant and random external events create a sign and increase stress But I will not stop trying But I am very eager to know what you think about the mind and the irrelevant and random patterns that it relates to negative events and how to get out of this cycle You can even put this as a podcast or clip on YouTube, I think it would be very welcome because I have seen many people who have this problem🙂😇 David’s response Hi Negar, Sure, we can have a question on the fear of being alone / abandoned, and the many ways of overcoming this problem. Copying Rhonda, my co-host. It is covered in detail in the first part of my book, Intimate Connections. Methods we can discuss include: Dailly Mood Log Empathy Positive Reframing Deserted Island Fantasy Cognitive Flooding Please Predicting Sheet Experimental Technique Examine the Evidence Downward Arrow / Identify Self-Defeating Belief(s) (SDB) Cost-Benefit Analysis for SDB Hidden Emotion Technique Externalization of Voices (with Acceptance Paradox, Self-Defense Paradigm, and CAT, or Counter-Attack Technique) Identify and Explain the Distortions Warmly, david   Dear Dr Burns Thank you for all the effort you put into the podcasts, video clips and other material, which I find so helpful. They are a great addition to the books you have written. They are very inspiring and  life changing in my case. I have two questions that I would be very grateful if you would discuss in one of your ask David podcasts, if you think they are worth discussing. 2. Stan ask about living with an anxious or depressed person who can sometimes be argumentative or demanding. Do you have any advice for family members or housemates that live with a person suffering from anxiety or depression. No one wants to make the situation worse and maybe there are some suggestions. I know it can be very difficult living with someone who is anxious or depressed. An anxious or depressed person might sometimes be very demanding or argumentative. They might also sit around doing almost nothing all day or they might have odd sleeping hours for example.  They may make unreasonable requests or be overly sensitive and when hurt lash out at others for example. David’s Reply I would strongly recommend the podcast on “How to Help and How NOT to Help!” Will explain a bit more on the podcast. David   3. Transference of Negative Emotions? Why do we feel bad and how can we protects ourselves from not feeling down during and after spending social time with anxious and / or depressed people because they express anxious or depressing thoughts to us. It seems to me that we must start to believe the distorted negative thoughts that the anxious or depressed person transmits to us, so we start to feel the same negative emotions the other person feels. When this happens we might start to avoid contact with the other person which might make them feel worse. As always I would really appreciate your thoughts on the above two matters, if you think it is worth an Ask David question Thank you again. Kind regards Stan David’s Reply Negative feelings do not “transfer” between people. Only your own thoughts can affect the way you feel. Will explain more on the show! If you’ve been making the mistake of trying to “help,” it would make sense that you would feel upset, frustrated, maybe even angry. But it is your own dysfunctional way of interacting with the depressed or anxious person, and your own negative thoughts, that are 100% responsible for how you feel! But I will need to spell this out on the show! Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

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• 455: Dating Part 3: Flirting Secrets, Safety, and More!

  Dating, Part 3 Flirting Secrets, Safety, and More! Today we feature, Dr. Leigh Harrington and Dr. Angela Krumm, who will tell us how to flirt and date skillfully. Both Leigh and Angela are highly advanced TEAM CBT therapists and beloved friends and long-time members of our TEAM Community. Bio sketches for both go here. Include the idea that Leigh is a psychiatrist who specializes in social anxiety, relationship problems, bad habits, and depression, as well as traversing difficult situations with grace. Angela is a clinical psychologist and co-founder of the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. She specializes in social anxiety, teaching flirting skills, treating phobias, as well as health and lifestyle changes. Leigh and Angela, let me know what you want for your contact information at the end of the show notes, like email, website, whatever you prefer in case listeners want to contact you. Also, if you have recent pics we can use in the show notes, that’s cool, too, but not required. Rhonda began the show, as usual, with a warm-hearted endorsement, this one from a fan who greatly appreciated Dr. Taylor Chesney’s recent podcast on how to communicate with teenagers who may seem rebellious and out of control. The listener said it helped tremendously in her interaction with her 15 year old stepdaughter. I was not surprised, as Taylor is always filled with great wisdom and awesome advice in her teachings—something I also appreciate tremendously. The take-home message was to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, instead of trying to control them. Form a meaningful and loving relationship. It will pay off in the long run, and in the short run as well! Leigh began today’s podcast with a focus on safety when dating strangers, having fun on your dates, how to avoid dating the “wrong” people, how to tame your “dating addiction,” and how to set yourself up for success. Angela then taught us how to generate a fun and meaningful conversation with people you meet, and how to flirt and get things started in a positive direction. She explained that she went through a divorce when she was still young, and got lots of help in her flirting skills from several dear colleagues, including Maor Katz, Jacob Towery, and Stephen Pfleiderer. Mastering these skills was very helpful, and is now more than happy to share the incredible tips she picked up at that time, as well as her personal experiences, which culminated in a successful second marriage and family with an awesome hunk of a guy she met, using these skills. Leigh described how she works with patients who are shy by going out with them to public places where they can encounter and interact with strangers so as to confront and overcome inhibitions and intense anxiety. She said this kind of dramatic experience can have a sudden beneficial impact. She described taking a patient to a drugstore to ask a clerk about the best products for a toenail fungus. The clerk was exceptionally helpful and friendly. Leigh emphasized the power of sharing vulnerabilities to enhance connection with others. Angela said she does the same, going out with patients to approach strangers on the street with innocuous “openers” like asking questions, asking for recommendations, asking someone to settle a debate or something you’re puzzling over, finding a connection/something in common, or giving compliments. Although these things may seem overly easy to folks who have never struggled with social anxiety, they can be huge accomplishments for people who have struggled with social anxiety. For example, if you’re at the grocery store, you might position yourself near someone new and make a comment that seemingly could be directed at them or at no one at all. Something like, “There are so many types of apples. How does anyone pick?” These types of openers are low stakes and give the other person a chance to respond and strike up a conversation or simply move on. In general, she reminded us that it’s a cognitive distortion to assume that people will find out attempts to talk to them irritating or burdensome. Most people appreciate positive attention and like being helpful. Or, if you’re at the grocery store, you might say “Oh, there are so many types of apples here today. I’m not sure which type to buy.” You can also ask strangers for advice; this can be effective because people like to be helpful and it sets them at ease. Angela has prepared a guide describing many valuable flirting skills which you can see if you click here! She also included some invaluable dating tips on avoiding dating the wrong people, safety, and more, which you can see if you CLICK HERE Angela explained many additional key concepts, like Angela explained many additional key concepts, like False time-constraints (taking the pressure off others by keeping initial asks for time short; keeping initial dates short to leave others wanting more) How to decide how much to share when deciding to try to deepen emotional intimacy. Physical and emotional intimacy—how much should you share, and when? Angela suggested that you can use a hierarchy of sharing – testing the waters by sharing things that aren’t too vulnerable for you. Then observe their responses. If they respond respectfully, you can go a bit deeper. So, in a sense, you are doing experiments to guide the ship. This is less stressful than thinking you are being judged and that you have to “perform.” It’s important NOT to chase. For example, once you start dating someone, you might say, “I can only date you once per week.” Then the other person can ask, “Well, why not twice a week?” Now you’re the chased, and not the chaser! Angela says that “It’s always smart to be a little less than 100% available.” It’s great to work to keep your life full and active so you can set these limits genuinely. I have shared some of these tips with young people who are dating. Sometimes they protest and say, “I shouldn’t have to play games like that.” Here’s my (David's) answer: “In fact you DON’T have to play games. And if your current approach is working well for you, that’s cool. But if you find you’re getting left behind too often, you might have to rethink your strategies, and stop believing that you know all the answers! Humans are manufactured to certain specifications—they are very predictable. And, if you’re smart, you can use that knowledge to your advantage, instead of being gullible and overly idealistic. Leigh provided more invaluable information on the important topic of safety when dating. She does not give out her phone number, and especially not her address, for the first X number of dates. Also, you need to attend to your instincts, such as “I have a funny feeling about this person, but I’m not sure why!” LISTEN to that inner voice. She advises, if you feel SAFE you can have more fun, greater freedom, and more enjoyment. Angela said you can also ask for consent before you touch, but you can do it in a flirty way, such as: “You look like you want to kiss me. Is that right?” Of, “I know I’ll really regret it if I don’t ask you to kiss me.” Leigh advised noticing body language. Where are they looking? Notice their eyes, and make contact with their eyes. Their eyes will nearly always be sending a signal. Leigh said that early in a potentially exciting relationship, you may be waiting for a signal from the other person between dates. For example, have they called or texted you? But you don’t have to wait. You can take the initiative. For example, you can send them a good night text, and see if they respond. You can even do it a couple times. This is a good experiment to see if there are some embers burning while you fan the flames a little. Thanks for listening today! Rhonda and I want to thank Angela and Leigh for such thoughtful and illuminating teaching. We hope it brings some courage and love into your life! Leigh, Angela, Rhonda, and David  

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• 454: Dating Part 2: Do You Need Some Love?

  Dating, Part 2 Do you need some love? Expert dating advice today! Today we feature two of our favorite people, Dr. Kyle Jones and Dr. Carly Zankman, who will discuss many aspects of dating. Both Kyle and Carly are advanced and highly effective TEAM CBT therapists with tons of experience in dating, and of course, in treatment. They share their personal experiences, as well as their considerable therapeutic expertise, in this highly energetic podcast. They cover a wide range of topics including ghosting, dealing with people who give you the run-around, negative self-fulfilling prophecies, Rejection Practice, how to avoid “chasing” (which Kyle calls the “Temptations Trap”) so you can be the one who’s being chased instead of the one who’s doing the chasing, the importance of being playful and how to make dating fun. The also encouraged avoiding some of the common kinds of negative self-talk, like “This date will suck,” or “I’ll always be alone,” or “People shouldn’t be so superficial,” etc. Kyle and David discussed Kyle’s first Sunday hike. Kyle had just been rejected by his boyfriend, and was feeling super down, telling  himself he was a reject and a loser. They describe how Kyle change his internal dialogue during the hike, and began to talk to himself as a winner, as an awesome, hot, sexy guy, which lifted his mood tremendously. Then David suggested a strategy designed to turn the tables on his ex-boyfriend: “Just go to a gay singles bar tonight and pick up some good looking guy and get laid! If you do that, I can guarantee your Ex will come crawling back, and then you can kick some sand in his face!” Abd that’s exactly what happened! David emphasized the importance of looking your best, in terms of clothing and appearance, when dating, as well as the resistance that some people have (mostly men) who insist they “shouldn’t have to play the gain.” I described my collaboration with a salesperson at the King of Prussia Bloomingdale’s named Kuniko Finkelstein when I was in clinical practice in Philadelphia. I used to refer my single guys to her for a “sex uniform,” and she would select extremely sexy and appealing outfits for them. We highlighted the self-centeredness and foolishness of telling yourself that women or men should love me for the way I am. They say, “I shouldn’t have to play the game.” Of course, you DON’T have to play the game, but if you don’t, you may and probably will end up alone! And once you DO learn how to “play the game,” your chances of finding a deep and meaningful love relationship go way up. About Kyle and Carly Kyle Jones, PhD, is a licensed clinical psychologist with a private telehealth practice serving clients throughout California. He is a Level 4 Advanced TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer.  Kyle specializes in helping individuals navigate anxiety, relationship challenges, and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), with a warm, and evidence-based TEAM approach. In addition to his clinical work, Dr. Jones co-leads The OCD Consultation Group, a monthly peer forum for clinicians dedicated to enhancing their skills in treating OCD. He also serves as adjunct faculty at Palo Alto University, where he teaches in both the master’s and doctoral programs in clinical psychology. A proud alumnus of UC Santa Barbara, Dr. Jones recently joined the alumni council for the Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences, mentoring students and supporting the next generation of mental health professionals. Carly Zankman, PsyD., is a Clinical Psychologist and Level 4 Advanced TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer based in Mountain View, California.  She specialized in working with younger adults and teens, helping them recover from anxiety and other mood challenges, such as social anxiety and fears of rejection and vulnerability, low self-esteem, trauma, and relationship issues.  Carly loves using TEAM-CBT and Exposure Methods to help her clients overcome their fears, create deeper, genuine connection, and live more authentic, joyous lives! Since 2021 the Feeling Great Book Club has been a way for people across the world to come together in learning and practicing powerful self-help CBT Tools in a group book club format guided by your transformative book Feeling Great and facilitated by Brandon a Vance and Heather Clague, two psychiatrists expert in TEAM CBT. The Awesome Feeling Great Book Club Returns! It includes: - Large Group Demonstrations - Small Group discussions and practice, facilitated by former book club members. - Some small groups specifically for those using the Feeling Great App   - Two 12 week online groups starting mid September and going until the first week in December, - meeting 80-minutes a session - either Mondays at 4pm or Wednesdays at 8:30am Pacific Time so they can be accessible to people all over the world. Cost is $240 for the series, sliding scale down to whatever you can afford. For more detail and to register, go to www.FeelingGreatTherapyCenter.com/Book-Club

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• 453: Dating Part 1: the (Dreaded) Dating Apps!

  Dating, Part 1 Navigating the Dreaded (But Sometimes Needed) Dating Apps! Today we started a series on one of my favorite topics: dating. When I was in clinical practice in Philadelphia, a large proportion of my patients self-identified as single, without partner, so this was one of my favorite problems to help people with, and why I wrote the book, Intimate Connections, which included my some of my personal experiences learning about dating during my medical school days at Stanford. Our special guests include our own TEAM CBT expert, Jacob Towery, MD, who presents the free annual two-day marathon on shyness called “Finding Humans Less Scary.” He will be presenting this program at Esalen as well from September 8 – 12, 2025. Check out the September 8 - 12 shyness workshop at the beautiful and dramatic Esalen in the Big Sur! We are also joined by two wonderful young ladies: Sydney, who graduated in 2024 from University of Santa Cruz, and Sophie, who recently graduated from UC Berkely. They will give us some first-hand experiences and suggestions in the navigation of dating apps. Jacob said that after his divorce in 2012, until 2020, he went on a lot of dating apps and met nearly 200 women this way, exploring both short and long-term types of dating. He said it is sometimes difficult to figure out what someone is really looking for on an app, whereas in person it is easier. The group described the tendency to treat people as objects and ghost them when you decide you’re not interested. He recommended, instead, to treat people with dignity and care, even if you’re not romantically interested in them. He said that whether you’ve been on one or many dates, don’t just ghost someone. Instead, you can let someone down gently if you aren’t interested. For example, at the end of a first date in which you don’t find yourself attracted to the other person, you could say “I didn’t feel a spark but I enjoyed our time together. Thanks for hanging out with me.” This will make it clear to the other person you won’t be asking for another date, but in a kind way, and prevents them wondering for days if you will ask them out again. In addition, he advised that initially, don’t just text people back and forth endlessly. Instead, get into real life ASAP. Meet them for coffee or ice cream or whatever would be fun. That way you can find out whether or not there’s a spark of interest. Jacob also recommended using a recent photo of yourself. If you use an older photo of yourself, the other person may be disappointed when they meet you! Jacob recommended being honest about what your interests are, and what you are looking for. Are you just looking for casual dating? Are you only looking for something that may evolve into a long term relationship? Are you interested in having children? What are your interests or hobbies? The group discussed many topics, like is it okay for a woman to take the initiative and ask people out they are interested in? It’s easy to get overwhelmed by having too many offers, too many to select from. And the whole process can be incredibly exhausting. How do you make conversation in a way that will turn the other person on and make them interested in you? What’s the secret? How do you overcome the fear of rejection? And what if you protect yourself from the fear of rejection by hiding personal information about yourself. For example, you may think that if you didn’t really open up to the other person, their rejection will be less painful because they didn’t see your so-called “real” self. Jacob emphasized the importance of being playful and creative when dating. People really like to have fun. Being overly serious or heavy can be a turn-off. Thanks for listening today! Future topics will include how to flirt, how to change the way you think when you’re rejected, making people chase you, how to get close, and more! Rhonda, Jacob, Sydney, Sophie, and David

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