The High Flyers Podcast with Vidit Agarwal

This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
Mike Vernal is a General Partner at Conviction and one of Silicon Valley’s most respected operator-turned-investors. He joined Facebook very early, spent eight years there working closely with Mark Zuckerberg and ultimately became VP of Product and Engineering, before becoming a partner at storied venture capital firm Sequoia Capital, where he backed companies including Notion, Rippling, Clay and Statsig.
In this conversation, Mike joins Vidit to unpack the journey from Microsoft to joining Facebook when it was still only a few hundred people, helping scale it through one of the most important periods in technology, and later becoming a partner at Sequoia before joining Conviction. He shares what he learned working closely with Mark Zuckerberg, why Facebook’s obsession with speed became such an advantage, how he learned to spot exceptional founders, and why ambition remains one of the traits he values most.
They also explore why Mike believes people risk “overfitting” to a job after seven years, what Sequoia taught him about great businesses, why he came back to venture after some of the most enjoyable years of his life with his family, and what changes when the cost of creating software starts approaching zero. Along the way, Mike shares the habits, quirks and principles behind his reputation as a “nerd’s nerd”, from obsessive curiosity and inbox zero to the belief that the best leaders make the people around them better.
Please enjoy exploring your curiosity.
_______
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
Show notes and more episodes here
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram
Get in touch with our Founder and Host, Vidit Agarwal directly here
Contact us via our website
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 — The Nerd’s Nerd
04:00 — Growing Up in New York
08:00 — Power, Internet and Caffeine
13:00 — Working at a Startup in High School
14:00 — Why Harvard Became the Goal
18:00 — Meeting His Wife
24:00 — What Microsoft Taught Him
31:00 — Why Strategy Can Go Wrong
33:00 — How Facebook Built High-Impact Teams
37:00 — The Moment Facebook Felt Different
43:00 — Facebook’s Speed Advantage
49:00 — Why Mike Left Facebook
54:00 — Why Sequoia
56:00 — Learning What Makes a Great Business
59:00 — Why He Doesn’t Take Notes
01:01:00 — What Mike Looks for in Founders
01:07:00 — Leaving Sequoia
01:09:00 — Why He Joined Conviction
01:14:00 — How Mike Spots What’s Next
01:16:00 — When Software Costs Approach Zero
01:18:00 — What Makes Products Go Viral
01:20:00 — Coaching His Kids
01:22:00 — Inbox Zero and Productivity
01:25:00 — What Mike Is Experimenting With
01:27:00 — The Advice That Changed His Career
________
The High Flyers Podcast features in-depth interviews with the world’s most influential figures in business, tech, finance, government and sport. Launched in 2020, it has ranked in the global top ten for past three years, with listeners in 27 countries and over 200+ episodes released, and featured in Forbes, Daily Telegraph, and at SXSW.
Our guests include -- Malcolm Turnbull (Prime Minister of Australia), Keith Rabois (Managing Director, Khosla Ventures), Jason Collins (Head of BlackRock, Asia Pacific), Brad Banducci (CEO, Woolworths), Michael Schneider (CEO, Bunnings), David Eckstein (CFO, Legora), Kevin Hartz (Partner, A*; Founder, Eventbrite), Shiv Rao (CEO, Abridge), Jesse Zhang (CEO, Decagon), Vandita Pant (CFO, BHP), Elena Verna (Head of Growth, Lovable), David Haber (a16z Partner), Jodie Auster (Uber's Global Head of Travel), Rob Giglio (CCO, Canva), Jean-Michel Limieux (CTO, Shopify and Atlassian), Stevie Case (CRO, Vanta), Cristina Cordova (COO, Linear), Gautam Chari (Head of Capital Commitments, Bank of America), John Haddock (CBO, Harvey), Mark Suster (Partner, Upfront Ventures), Niki Scevak (Partner, Blackbird), Craig Tiley (CEO, USA Tennis), Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (COO, Vercel), Paul Bassat (Partner, Square Peg), Bowen Pan (Creator, Facebook Marketplace), Peter Varghese (Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Australian Government), Sam Sicilia (CIO, Hostplus), Jack Zhang (CEO, Airwallex), Tim Doyle (CEO, Eucalyptus), Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (CEO, Xero), Sanjeev Gandhi (CEO, Orica) and Philip Green (Australia's Ambassador/High Commissioner to India).

Welcome to the 14th episode in our special series with the Australian Government and their Centre for Australia–India Relations (CAIR), spotlighting the growing Australia–India relationship across technology, business, media, culture and sport.
Other guests in this series include BHP's CFO Vandita Pant, Bank of America's Head of Capital Commitments Gautam Chari, Austrade's GM for South Asia Mukund Narayanamurti, Renowned Music Composer Tushar Apte, Australia's High Commissioner to India Philip Green, MUFG's CEO Vivek Bhatia, Australia's Secretary of Foreign Affairs Peter Varghese, NAB's EGM Sweta Mehra, Deputy Secretary of Australia's Home Affairs Brendan Dowling, Orica's CEO Sanjeev Gandhi, Sports Journalist Bharat Sundaresan, Cricket Legend Lisa Sthalekar and CAIR's CEO, Ryan Neelam, reflecting the breadth of Indian-Australian leaders at the most senior levels.
________
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
________
Amit Singh is Managing Partner of Mandala, a global economics, data and policy research firm. He has advised three Australian Prime Ministers, served as Uber’s Global Head of Economic Policy in San Francisco, and more. Today, he leads Mandala and serves on several prominent government and public-policy boards.
In this conversation with Vidit, Amit shares his journey from growing up amid political instability in Fiji and moving to Australia as a teenager, to running a $20 million organisation with 200 employees at just 21 — before going on to work at the highest levels of Australian government.
He reflects on going from Freehills to Kevin Rudd’s office in the space of two days, subsequently working for Julia Gillard and briefly Anthony Albanese, and the experience of technically losing his job five times during his political career. Amit also shares the equal-pay decision he is proudest of, which delivered a 23–45% pay increase for 150,000 predominantly female care workers.
Amit also explains why he left government for technology, what moving to San Francisco and working at Uber taught him about ambition and taking risks, and how those experiences ultimately led to building Mandala as a globally focused economics and policy firm.
They also explore Amit’s Fijian-Indian identity, why he believes the Australia–India economic relationship remains underdone despite decades of intent, the opportunity across technology, AI and services, and why changing Australians’ understanding of modern India could unlock a much deeper relationship.
Please enjoy exploring your curiosity.
______
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
Show notes and more episodes here
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram
Get in touch with our Founder and Host, Vidit Agarwal directly here
Contact us via our website
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Who is Amit Singh
01:28 From selling limes in Fiji to building Mandala
03:43 Growing up Fijian-Indian amid political instability
04:31 His parents’ sacrifice — and the values they passed down
08:11 Navigating identity after moving to Australia
11:42 Finishing high school at 16 — by accident
13:12 Running a $20M organisation at 21
16:13 Law, Freehills & an unexpected career path
17:52 From lawyer to Kevin Rudd’s office in two days
21:51 What working closely with Prime Ministers taught him
23:21 The decision that changed pay for 150,000 workers
26:10 Leaving government for Uber and Silicon Valley
28:57 From playing it safe to “shoot your shot”
31:38 The hardest parts of Amit’s career
33:36 What Uber taught him about managing exceptional people
35:22 Building Mandala
37:22 Why Australia–India remains underdone
42:13 Why no one is truly self-made
43:24 Rapid fire
________
The High Flyers Podcast features in-depth interviews with the world’s most influential figures in business, tech, finance, government and sport. Launched in 2020, it has ranked in the global top ten for past three years, with listeners in 27 countries and over 200+ episodes released, and featured in Forbes, Daily Telegraph, and at SXSW.
Our guests include -- Malcolm Turnbull (Prime Minister of Australia), Keith Rabois (Managing Director, Khosla Ventures), Jason Collins (Head of BlackRock, Asia Pacific), Brad Banducci (CEO, Woolworths), Michael Schneider (CEO, Bunnings), David Eckstein (CFO, Legora), Kevin Hartz (Partner, A*; Founder, Eventbrite), Shiv Rao (CEO, Abridge), Jesse Zhang (CEO, Decagon), Vandita Pant (CFO, BHP), Elena Verna (Head of Growth, Lovable), David Haber (a16z Partner), Jodie Auster (Uber's Global Head of Travel), Rob Giglio (CCO, Canva), Jean-Michel Limieux (CTO, Shopify and Atlassian), Stevie Case (CRO, Vanta), Cristina Cordova (COO, Linear), Gautam Chari (Head of Capital Commitments, Bank of America), John Haddock (CBO, Harvey), Mark Suster (Partner, Upfront Ventures), Niki Scevak (Partner, Blackbird), Craig Tiley (CEO, USA Tennis), Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (COO, Vercel), Paul Bassat (Partner, Square Peg), Bowen Pan (Creator, Facebook Marketplace), Peter Varghese (Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Australian Government), Sam Sicilia (CIO, Hostplus), Jack Zhang (CEO, Airwallex), Tim Doyle (CEO, Eucalyptus), Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (CEO, Xero), Sanjeev Gandhi (CEO, Orica) and Philip Green (Australia's Ambassador/High Commissioner to India).

This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
Ryan Beiermeister is a Partner at Founders Fund, one of the world’s leading venture capital firms. Before becoming an investor, she held senior roles at three of the most consequential technology companies of the past decade: VP at OpenAI leading AI safety work, Product Director at Meta across election integrity and social issues, and VP at Palantir, where she helped lead development of Gotham. At College, Ryan was the #1 ranked college policy debater in the US and won top speaker at the 2012 national championship, becoming only the fourth woman since 1946 to do so.
In this conversation, Ryan joins Vidit to unpack the unconventional path from Houston and elite college debate to Palantir, Meta, OpenAI and now Founders Fund, including why Palantir took a chance on her at 22, what she learned building products for governments and billions of users, and why she believes there is still “no replacement for human judgement” in the age of AI.
They also explore the risks of building technology and simply “throwing it over the wall”, the developmental impact of AI on young people, what makes humans uniquely valuable in an increasingly automated world, and Ryan’s early lessons from making the leap from operator to venture capitalist.
Please enjoy exploring your curiosity.
_______
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
Show notes and more episodes here
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram
Get in touch with our Founder and Host, Vidit Agarwal directly here
Contact us via our website
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
TIMESTAMPS
01:28 From Palantir to Founders Fund
04:00 The mentor who changed everything
07:05 Growing up in Houston
10:00 Feeling different at an elite school
12:00 Why high-performing women are different
14:00 Nolan Ryan
17:00 When debate became her superpower
20:00 Why Meta used her whole brain
22:00 Books, empathy & social justice
25:00 No master plan
27:00 How Palantir bet on a debate champion
32:00 From user empathy to building Gotham
34:00 Learning to double down on strengths
37:00 Trae Stephens
41:00 Breaking the VC pattern-recognition playbook
41:40 Can AI replace human judgement?
44:00 What AI could do to young minds
47:00 Why human imperfection matters
51:00 Leaving Palantir for Meta
56:00 When products meet the real world
59:00 Why Ryan finally became a VC
1:02:00 Why OpenAI felt impossible to ignore
1:04:00 Building safety systems for AI
1:05:00 The operator-to-investor mindset shift
1:10:00 Her first deal at Founders Fund
1:12:00 Why authenticity is an investing edge
1:19:00 Ryan’s one-hour reading habits
1:24:00 Ryan’s favourite interview questions
________
The High Flyers Podcast features in-depth interviews with the world’s most influential figures in business, tech, finance, government and sport. Launched in 2020, it has ranked in the global top ten for past three years, with listeners in 27 countries and over 200+ episodes released, and featured in Forbes, Daily Telegraph, and at SXSW.
Our guests include -- Malcolm Turnbull (Prime Minister of Australia), Keith Rabois (Managing Director, Khosla Ventures), Jason Collins (Head of BlackRock, Asia Pacific), Brad Banducci (CEO, Woolworths), Michael Schneider (CEO, Bunnings), David Eckstein (CFO, Legora), Kevin Hartz (Partner, A*; Founder, Eventbrite), Shiv Rao (CEO, Abridge), Jesse Zhang (CEO, Decagon), Vandita Pant (CFO, BHP), Elena Verna (Head of Growth, Lovable), David Haber (a16z Partner), Jodie Auster (Uber's Global Head of Travel), Rob Giglio (CCO, Canva), Jean-Michel Limieux (CTO, Shopify and Atlassian), Stevie Case (CRO, Vanta), Cristina Cordova (COO, Linear), Gautam Chari (Head of Capital Commitments, Bank of America), John Haddock (CBO, Harvey), Mark Suster (Partner, Upfront Ventures), Niki Scevak (Partner, Blackbird), Craig Tiley (CEO, USA Tennis), Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (COO, Vercel), Paul Bassat (Partner, Square Peg), Bowen Pan (Creator, Facebook Marketplace), Peter Varghese (Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Australian Government), Sam Sicilia (CIO, Hostplus), Jack Zhang (CEO, Airwallex), Tim Doyle (CEO, Eucalyptus), Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (CEO, Xero), Sanjeev Gandhi (CEO, Orica) and Philip Green (Australia's Ambassador/High Commissioner to India).

This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
Ellen DaSilva is the Founder and CEO of Summer Health, the pediatric healthcare company that served 30,000+ families before being acquired by Doctronic in 2026. Earlier, she was employee #8 at Hims & Hers and worked at Twitter during its hyper growth years. She is an active angel investor and Sequoia Scout, and earned her MBA with Distinction from Harvard Business School.
In this conversation, Ellen joins Vidit to unpack the ambition behind her extraordinary career, the leap from Wall Street to scaling Twitter during its hyper gowth years, why she nearly became a Hims competitor before joining as employee #8, and what happened when she finally took the founder leap with Summer Health.
They also explore how consumer software has changed, what makes great companies feel “inevitable”, why Ellen is “incapable of turning off founder mode”, and the philosophy behind living life on “maximum mode” and lots more.
Please enjoy exploring your curiosity.
_______
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
Show notes and more episodes here
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram
Get in touch with our Founder and Host, Vidit Agarwal directly here
Contact us via our website
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Ellen’s “hot take” on consumer AI
02:00 From Barclays to selling Summer Health
05:00 Growing up ambitious in New York
09:00 The family behind Ellen’s drive
11:00 “CEO of Coca-Cola” at age five
13:00 Politics, Bloomberg & an early obsession with change
15:00 Why Ellen studied English literature
18:00 Raising three intensely curious kids
19:00 China vs Wall Street
23:00 “I knew I was going to marry him”
26:00 Discovering tech from a Wall Street desk
29:00 The 10-day leap from Barclays to Twitter
31:00 Scaling Twitter during hypergrowth
33:00 Why “every job becomes sales”
35:00 How Twitter shaped Summer Health
38:00 HBS, ambition & “colouring outside the lines”
42:00 How Ellen spots exceptional companies early
45:00 The startup she nearly built before Hims
47:00 employee #8 at Hims to IPO
48:00 Building healthcare like consumer software
49:00 Why Summer Health removed the interface
51:00 Why text-based products may win
52:00 What Ellen would build next
54:00 Why Summer Health sold to Doctronic
57:00 Ellen’s fundraising playbook
01:02:00 The 5 people in her "hall of fame" room
01:08:00 The hardest period of her career
01:11:00 “I’m incapable of turning off founder mode”
01:13:00 Parenting without slowing down
01:14:00 Living life on “maximum mode”
01:17:00 Food, health & learning Mandarin
01:18:00 Vibe coding, robotics & what Ellen wants to learn next
01:19:00 “Where are you an outlier?”
01:20:00 Ellen’s pet peeve
________
The High Flyers Podcast features in-depth interviews with the world’s most influential figures in business, tech, finance, government and sport. Launched in 2020, it has ranked in the global top ten for past three years, with listeners in 27 countries and over 200+ episodes released, and featured in Forbes, Daily Telegraph, and at SXSW.
Our guests include -- Malcolm Turnbull (Prime Minister of Australia), Keith Rabois (Managing Director, Khosla Ventures), Jason Collins (Head of BlackRock, Asia Pacific), Brad Banducci (CEO, Woolworths), Michael Schneider (CEO, Bunnings), David Eckstein (CFO, Legora), Kevin Hartz (Partner, A*; Founder, Eventbrite), Shiv Rao (CEO, Abridge), Jesse Zhang (CEO, Decagon), Vandita Pant (CFO, BHP), Elena Verna (Head of Growth, Lovable), David Haber (a16z Partner), Jodie Auster (Uber's Global Head of Travel), Rob Giglio (CCO, Canva), Jean-Michel Limieux (CTO, Shopify and Atlassian), Stevie Case (CRO, Vanta), Cristina Cordova (COO, Linear), Gautam Chari (Head of Capital Commitments, Bank of America), John Haddock (CBO, Harvey), Mark Suster (Partner, Upfront Ventures), Niki Scevak (Partner, Blackbird), Craig Tiley (CEO, USA Tennis), Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (COO, Vercel), Paul Bassat (Partner, Square Peg), Bowen Pan (Creator, Facebook Marketplace), Peter Varghese (Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Australian Government), Sam Sicilia (CIO, Hostplus), Jack Zhang (CEO, Airwallex), Tim Doyle (CEO, Eucalyptus), Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (CEO, Xero), Sanjeev Gandhi (CEO, Orica) and Philip Green (Australia's Ambassador/High Commissioner to India).

This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
Dr. Shiv Rao is the Co-Founder and CEO of Abridge, one of the world’s leading healthcare AI companies, turning clinician-patient conversations into clinical intelligence across 300+ health systems and 100M+ conversations annually. A practising cardiologist, Shiv previously worked across healthcare technology and investing at UPMC before founding Abridge in 2018.
In this rare in-depth conversation, Shiv joins Vidit to unpack his unconventional path: moving from Pittsburgh to India at nine, skateboarding, programming synthesizers, selling records in Japan and nearly quitting medical school before becoming a cardiologist.
He shares how a seemingly perfect career across medicine, technology and investing left him “incredibly restless”, eventually leading to Abridge. But success was far from immediate: Shiv spent nearly four years as a “languishing founder” before generative AI arrived, “the sky just opened up”, and Abridge made its pivotal move into enterprise healthcare.
They also explore why “pressure makes diamonds”, the family sacrifices behind building when “every minute matters”, what changes when a company passes 500 people, why Shiv still practises medicine, and what he’s learned from unlikely influences including Jensen Huang and Rick Rubin.
Please enjoy exploring your curiosity.
________
Get in touch with us via email at contact@curiositycentre.com
Join our stable of commercial partners including the Australian Government, Google, KPMG,, Allens, Macquarie Capital, Xero, JP Morgan and more.
Show notes and more episodes here
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram
Get in touch with our Founder and Host, Vidit Agarwal directly here
Contact us via our website
This episode is supported by Xero, helping businesses use AI with more control through JAX, its in-platform AI finance partner. Get 90% off your plan for your first 6 months at xero.com/highflyers.
________
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Meet Shiv Rao
02:00 Living on planes
04:55 Xero
07:00 Pittsburgh and India
12:00 Identity, India & belonging
17:00 Skateboarding, music & creativity
19:00 The moment that led Shiv to medicine
23:00 Selling records in Japan
25:00 Nearly quitting medical school
28:00 Medicine’s complicated relationship with technology
30:00 Teaching himself to code & early product-market fit
35:00 Why “pressure makes diamonds”
39:00 Medicine → healthcare investing
44:00 Leaving the “dream job” to build Abridge
48:00 Family sacrifice & the reality of building
50:00 Why “every minute matters” in AI
54:00 Abridge’s years as a “languishing” startup
59:00 When “the sky just opened up”
1:01:00 Abridge’s YOLO move into enterprise
1:03:00 The first customer “Love Stories”
1:10:00 Why enterprise healthcare is so defensible
1:15:00 Building AI that enterprises can’t replicate
1:21:00 Hiring, loyalty & scaling the team
1:23:00 Leading 500+ people
1:26:00 Lessons from Jensen Huang & Rick Rubin
1:30:00 What everyone is missing about AI
1:32:00 Rapid fire
________
The High Flyers Podcast features in-depth interviews with the world’s most influential figures in business, tech, finance, government and sport. Launched in 2020, it has ranked in the global top ten for past three years, with listeners in 27 countries and over 200+ episodes released, and featured in Forbes, Daily Telegraph, and at SXSW.
Our guests include -- Malcolm Turnbull (Prime Minister of Australia), Keith Rabois (Managing Director, Khosla Ventures), Jason Collins (Head of BlackRock, Asia Pacific), Brad Banducci (CEO, Woolworths), Michael Schneider (CEO, Bunnings), David Eckstein (CFO, Legora), Kevin Hartz (Partner, A*; Founder, Eventbrite), Jesse Zhang (CEO, Decagon), Vandita Pant (CFO, BHP), Elena Verna (Head of Growth, Lovable), David Haber (a16z Partner), Jodie Auster (Uber's Global Head of Travel), Rob Giglio (CCO, Canva), Jean-Michel Limieux (CTO, Shopify and Atlassian), Stevie Case (CRO, Vanta), Cristina Cordova (COO, Linear), Gautam Chari (Head of Capital Commitments, Bank of America), John Haddock (CBO, Harvey), Mark Suster (Partner, Upfront Ventures), Niki Scevak (Partner, Blackbird), Craig Tiley (CEO, USA Tennis), Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (COO, Vercel), Paul Bassat (Partner, Square Peg), Bowen Pan (Creator, Facebook Marketplace), Peter Varghese (Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Australian Government), Sam Sicilia (CIO, Hostplus), Jack Zhang (CEO, Airwallex), Tim Doyle (CEO, Eucalyptus), Sukhinder Singh Cassidy (CEO, Xero), Sanjeev Gandhi (CEO, Orica) and Philip Green (Australia's Ambassador/High Commissioner to India).