The Covert Narcissism Podcast

How do you explain emotional abuse to the people around you when you can barely explain it to yourself? In this episode, the roles are reversed. High-conflict divorce coach Eleanor Marks interviews Renee about her new book, This Is Not Okay, and the eleven years of healing behind it.

They talk about the "catching a ghost" feeling of self-doubt so many survivors of covert narcissistic abuse know, the kind of abuse that leaves no bruises, why family and friends often can't see what you're living, and how to untangle yourself, whether you stay or leave.

Get This Is Not Okay at Amazon or at Renee's website www.covertnarcissism.com

Facing a divorce? Eleanor's six-week Divorcing a Covert Narcissist group starts November 9, 2026, on Zoom. Register at www.covertnarcissism.com or contact Eleanor at https://EleanorMarks.net.

Ready for deeper support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee's coaching at www.covertnarcissism.com, and make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is a narcissist, really, and how does covert narcissism quietly destroy the closest relationships in your life? The word “narcissist” is everywhere right now, used for everything from a forgotten phone call to a snappy afternoon. But real narcissism isn’t about occasional human mistakes. It’s about consistent patterns that make genuine intimacy impossible.

This is part one of a two-part series on the two characteristics that lead the way: a lack of empathy and a lack of vulnerability. Renee Swanson explains it through the image of an old castle door, bolted shut in both directions. Your feelings can’t get in, and their real self never comes out.

This week’s focus is the lack of empathy. Many survivors push back on the idea that a narcissist has no empathy, because this person seemed to read them perfectly. Renee explains the difference between cognitive empathy, knowing what you feel, and emotional empathy, caring what you feel. That difference is why the hurtful comments always landed right where it hurts most. She walks through everyday examples, in grief, illness, disappointment, joy, and childhood. And she explains how a lack of empathy, over time, leaves you lonely inside your own relationship, doubting your own feelings, and living with a nervous system that never gets to rest. If you’re on the path of narcissistic abuse recovery and have ever wondered whether your feelings were the problem, this episode will help you see clearly that they weren’t.

Next week, in part two, Renee turns to the other side of the door: the lack of vulnerability, counterfeit vulnerability, and what happens when these two traits meet.

Renee’s new book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, releases October 20, 2026.

Ready for support on your own healing journey? Learn about Renee’s coaching program at www.covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you don’t miss part two next week.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, the Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only. It is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and is not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a health care provider for guidance specific to your case. This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experiences as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support an allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of the material and information provided.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Every text, email, and social media post you write could end up in front of a judge. In part two of this conversation, Renee and attorney Rebecca Zung get practical about protecting yourself from a narcissist in court, whether you're facing a divorce, a custody case, or a high-conflict co-parent.

Rebecca explains what's safe to post when you're looking for support, and why she tells clients to write like they're reporting the news. She explains why building leverage matters more than proving the other person is a narcissist, and how to turn thousands of screenshots into an organized case your lawyer can use. She and Renee also talk about whether you need a "bulldog" lawyer, why you shouldn't give away your leverage too early, and why high-conflict personalities often back down when you finally stand up.

Try Slay AI for free at https://slaypro.ai, and find Rebecca on YouTube at https://RebeccaZung.tv and on Instagram at @RebeccaZung.

If you're on your own narcissistic abuse recovery journey and want more support, Renee's coaching program is a great next step. Learn more at www.covertnarcissism.com. And if this conversation helped you, make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In covert narcissism, even the “good” behavior is part of the manipulation. You thought you married Cliff Huxtable, only to find out you married Bill Cosby. If that line lands in your stomach, this episode is for you.

So many survivors say, “He’s being good right now,” or “She’s in a good place this week.” But what if those sweet seasons aren’t breaks from the manipulation at all? What if they’re the most effective part of it? Renee introduces a new concept, counterfeit kindness: kindness that looks real, feels real and passes inspection, but has nothing behind it when you need to rely on it.

You’ll learn what counterfeit kindness buys a covert narcissist (your attention, love, supply, willingness and trust), why it causes more harm than the obviously bad behavior, and how the cycle of hope and hurt deepens trauma bonding. Renee also shares her own moment of asking, “Is he a good person having a bad month, or a bad person having a good day?” and reads a passage from her new book, This Is Not Okay, about how survivors end up holding the mask in place.

You’ll leave with four questions to tell real kindness from counterfeit kindness, plus a simple tool for your narcissistic abuse recovery: giving the character a name, so you can stay clear-headed when the performance starts.

If you understand the patterns but still feel stuck in the cycle, coaching can help you take the next step. Learn more about Renee’s coaching program at www.covertnarcissism.com.

Subscribe to the Covert Narcissism Podcast so you never miss an episode, and share it with someone who needs to hear it.

Renee’s book, This Is Not Okay: Escaping the Invisible Grip of Covert Narcissistic Abuse, releases October 20. Join the mailing list at www.covertnarcissism.com to hear the moment it’s out.

The information provided by Renee Swanson, Covert Narcissism Podcast, and CNG Life Coaching is for educational purposes only and is not to be used for diagnosis purposes and not intended to be a substitute for clinical care. Please consult a healthcare provider for guidance specific to your case. This material discusses narcissism in general. Renee shares stories from her personal experience as well as from those she has talked with for several years. Her material does not claim that any specific person has narcissism and should not be used to refer to any specific person as having narcissism. Permission is not granted to link to or repost this material to support any allegation or support a claim that any specific person is a narcissist. That would be an unauthorized misuse of this material and information provided.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does a narcissist really want in a divorce? It usually isn't money, love, or logic. It's image. In this episode, Renee welcomes back attorney Rebecca Zung, who has spent more than 25 years in family law and now focuses on helping people negotiate with narcissists and other high-conflict personalities.

Rebecca explains why covert narcissists protect their image at any cost. She also describes how they quietly control your image by planting seeds with friends and family months before a custody case begins. She and Renee talk about why the goalposts keep moving, why going straight to a subpoena can save you money and stress during discovery, and why your first move before any negotiation happens inside you. Rebecca also shares her JADE rule (don't justify, argue, defend, or explain), how a calm nervous system leads to better decisions, and why every bad behavior is a "gift" to write down.

Find Rebecca's work on YouTube at https://RebeccaZung.tv and try Slay AI for free at https://slaypro.ai.

If this episode resonates with you and you're ready for deeper support on your own healing journey, Renee's coaching program is a place to start. Learn more at www.covertnarcissism.com. And so you don't miss part two of this conversation, make sure you're subscribed to the show.

The Covert Narcissism Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here should be taken as professional mental health advice. If you are in crisis or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.