The Systemic Way

What happens when the systems designed to help us start shaping, limiting or even defining the problems we are trying to solve?
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Mark Phillips, a highly experienced systemic psychotherapist, mental health nurse and strategic leader who has worked across NHS, local authority and youth justice services for more than two decades. Mark is currently Strategic Health Lead for Youth Justice Services and Head of Family Therapy at Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust, and also works as a consultant systemic psychotherapist and supervisor. He qualified as a systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in 2005. 
Together, we explore neoliberalism and its impact on systemic practice, mental health and public services. We talk about the growing emphasis on individual responsibility, productivity, measurement and outcomes, and what can be lost when complex relational and social difficulties are reduced to individual problems.
Mark shares reflections from his work in youth justice, CAMHS and local authority services, including the tensions between behavioural interventions and more contextual, relational approaches. We explore power, privilege, oppression, organisational culture, payment-by-results, professional identity and the politics of therapy.
We also consider what it means for systemic practitioners to become agents of resistance and change: finding allies, learning to speak the language of organisations, challenging taken-for-granted assumptions and creating spaces for alternative ways of working.
Ultimately, this is a conversation about how we understand the systems we work within—and what possibilities emerge when we become willing to question them.
Chapters:
00:00 – Neoliberalism, Mental Health & Resistance Within The Systems We Live In
03:32 – Meet Mark Phillips
05:52 – An Accidental Journey into Systemic Psychotherapy
08:02 – Privilege, Marginalisation & Identity
20:31 – When Therapy Becomes Part of an Oppressive System
23:42 – Positivism, Relativism & Understanding People in Context
28:18 – What Is Neoliberalism?
34:57 – The Paradox of Payment by Results
36:35 – From Behavioural to Relational Practice
40:48 – Systemic Practice as Activism
42:00 – “Be With Us”: Co-Construction & Collaboration
43:51 – Learning to Speak the Language of the System
48:18 – Finding Allies Within the System
50:12 – Individual Responsibility & Systemic Inequality
51:54 – Neoliberalism & the Productivity Machine
58:19 – Systemic Practice as Resistance
1:00:49 – Taking Risks & Speaking Truth to Power
1:05:12 – Finding Pockets of Possibility
1:09:33 – Moving Beyond “This Is How We Do Things”
1:10:53 – Putting Systemic Theory Into Action

Who are the people, past and present, who have helped you become who you are?
In this episode of The Systemic Way, we explore Team of Life, a creative narrative practice developed from the Tree of Life approach. We speak with Mariangels Ferrer-Duch and Vicky Eames from Riverbank Psychology as we discuss how to help people reconnect with stories of strength, courage and belonging. This is a reflective conversation about narrative practice, relational identity and the power of remembering that no one's story is written alone.
Using the metaphor of a sporting team, Team of Life invites us to think about the people, relationships, communities, values, skills and experiences that have helped shape who we are and supported us through difficult times.
Who are the people who have been in your corner?
Who has passed you the ball when you needed it?
Who helped you find your way when you were unsure where to go?
And whose team are you a member of?
Together, we explore how Team of Life can create opportunities to recognise skills, celebrate relationships and reconnect people with stories of strength, contribution and belonging that can easily become overshadowed by problems.
From a systemic and narrative perspective, the episode asks what becomes possible when we move away from seeing resilience as an individual quality and instead locate it within relationships, histories, communities and collective experience.
Because none of us gets through life entirely on our own.
Sometimes, it takes a team. 
Who would be on your Team of Life?

Dr Vicky Eames is a consultant clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience in adult and child and adolescent mental health. She offers psychological therapy in Cornwall and online with specialisms in narrative therapy, attachment and trauma focused therapy, EMDR as well as therapeutic work with neurodivergent people.

Mariangels Ferrer-Duch is a clinical psychologist and systemic family therapist with over 30 years experience. She also holds a masters in narrative therapy and community work. Mariangels offers online supervision, consultation and training, helping practitioners develop their skills in narrative therapy,

Join us for a thought-provoking episode as we sit down with Kunsang Yang Yang , a pioneering voice in the integration of Buddhist philosophy and systemic family therapy. Drawing from years of personal spiritual practice, professional experience, and the teachings of his root guru, H.H. Yisie Vorle (as featured in the book Path Beyond Samsara), Yang Yang explores how Buddhist concepts like mindfulness, non-self, and wholesome aspirations can transform the way we understand and foster change within families and communities.
Discover how Buddhist ideas—such as the five aggregates, relational mindfulness, and the power of mantra recitation—can broaden the systemic lens, offering new pathways for healing and connection. We’ll delve into practical techniques, including the innovative narrative-mantra group model, and hear insights from clinicians who have participated in these integrative practices. Whether you’re a therapist, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about the intersection of Eastern wisdom and modern psychology, this episode offers fresh perspectives and actionable ideas for cultivating compassion, resilience, and meaningful change.
Tune in to explore the rich dialogue between Buddhism and systemic therapy, and learn how ancient wisdom is shaping the future of mental health and relational wellbeing.

As a qualified Singaporean Systemic Family Psychotherapist, Counsellor and Social Worker for over 20 years, Yang Yang has worked with children, adolescents, individual adults, couples and families in the UK and Singapore. He lived in London for 13 years before relocating back to Singapore, where he continues to offer systemic therapy as a Buddhist monk. He just completed his PhD in Buddhist studies at Thailand during this interview.

What does it mean to truly see in therapy? Not just to recognise a problem or follow a model, but to sense the subtle movements of relationship — the flicker of meaning between people, the quiet shifts that change the course of a conversation.
In this episode, Dr. Hugh Palmer, systemic family psychotherapist, trainer and writer, invites us into the art of expanded vision. Drawing on Gregory Bateson, William Blake, and decades of systemic practice, Hugh explores Fourfold Vision as a way of perceiving that blends evidence, theory, intuition and imagination into something alive, relational and deeply human.
Together, we wander through the landscapes of therapy where a clinician becomes scientist, theorist, humanist and artist all at once — noticing patterns, welcoming uncertainty, and allowing themselves to be changed by the families they meet. Hugh shows how widening our vision can open new possibilities for connection, creativity and transformation.
For therapists, supervisors, trainees, and anyone fascinated by how people make meaning together, this conversation offers a gentle but powerful invitation: to see more, feel more, and meet the world with a fuller, more responsive imagination.

In this episode, we shine a spotlight on the Pears Family School, a pioneering Alternative Provision school in the UK that is redefining how we support children with complex emotional, behavioral, and mental health needs. Facing a national crisis in child mental health and a lack of joined-up services, the Pears Family School bridges the gap between education and mental health through a unique, systemic, and family-focused approach.
We are joined by Laura Lower and Maya Bell Kohli as we discover how the school’s founders, both experienced teachers and systemic family therapists, created a model that integrates therapeutic and educational practices. We’ll explore the origins of their innovative multi-family classroom, the five bridging themes that guide every aspect of school life—Active Warmth, Respectful Curiosity, Hopeful Motivation, Supportive Challenge, and Engendered Trust—and the theoretical foundations that underpin their work, from Attachment Theory to Mentalization.
Hear how all staff, not just therapists, are trained in mental health principles, enabling them to make informed interventions throughout the school day. Learn about the school’s commitment to involving parents and carers in every step, from classroom activities to group discussions, building trust and solidarity among families who have often felt excluded or blamed.
Maya and Laura share real stories of transformation, discuss the challenges of working with children at risk of exclusion, and examine how the Pears Family School helps students recover, regain confidence, and transition successfully back to mainstream education. Whether you’re an educator, mental health professional, or advocate for vulnerable children, this episode offers practical insights and inspiration for anyone interested in systemic change and holistic support for families.

Laura is a family and systemic psychotherapist and supervisor with extensive experience in therapeutic education and safeguarding. For the past six years, she has been a senior leader at The Pears Family School, a specialist therapeutic alternative provision, where she works as Head of Therapy and Safeguarding Lead. Before joining the school, Laura worked in CAMHS as a Senior Mental Health Practitioner and spent seven years as a senior leader within a large SEMH Academy Trust. Prior to returning to the UK, she spent six years in Australia as a senior social worker and specialist forensic child interviewer. Across every setting, Laura has championed the belief that schools can be transformative spaces for children and families. She is passionate about systemic approaches and their power to create meaningful, sustainable change.

Maya is a trainee family and systemic psychotherapist who has worked at Pears Family School since 2018, firstly as a Class Teacher and now as an Assistant Headteacher and SENCO. Her interest in systemic ideas has been growing steadily through her work with families in education and charity contexts over the last 15 years. At Pears Family School her favourite part of her role is working alongside families so that they are positioned more powerfully within school or societal systems that often contribute to how they might feel they are failing or powerless.