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Dads With Daughters

Podcast Dads With Daughters
Dr. Christopher Lewis of Fathering Together
Dads with Daughters strives to create a supportive online community that highlights promising practices for fathers to better understand themselves and their da...

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  • From Entrepreneurship to Fatherhood: Kevin Lavelle's Parenting Philosophy and Sleep Innovations
    In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had a heartfelt and enlightening discussion with Kevin Lavelle, co-founder and CEO of Harbor. Kevin shared his experiences and reflections on raising two healthy children—an 8-year-old son and a 6-year-old daughter—while managing the demands of a thriving career. Kevin emphasized the importance of being present for his children despite the time constraints of being an entrepreneur. He has found fulfillment in volunteering as a soccer coach for his son and accompanying his daughter to gymnastics. His philosophy of being "appropriately selfish" underscored the necessity of self-care to be effective in caring for one's family. The Fleeting Nature of Childhood Both Kevin and our host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, resonate on how quickly time passes with young children. Recounting poignant moments like the birth of his son and profound moments in his entrepreneurial journey, Kevin appreciated the urgency of cherishing every moment with family. He shared a personal anecdote about working on a term sheet in the delivery room, highlighting the blend of work and personal life that many modern parents experience. This understanding deepened after a personal loss—his wife's mother—which reinforced the irreplaceable value of family time. Dr. Lewis echoed this sentiment, encouraging fathers to prioritize building strong relationships with their children over work commitments. Challenges of Modern Parenting Kevin tackled the complex challenge of raising respectful and capable children in today’s world. He discussed the necessity of discipline, the influence of external factors such as peers and media, and the struggle of maintaining different parenting standards than others. Kevin and his wife take pride in their children’s respectful behavior in public, yet they find themselves constantly correcting behaviors influenced by their environments. Dr. Lewis and Kevin also explored the concept of “deprogramming,” or correcting behaviors developed when children are outside the home. This underscores the dynamic landscape parents must navigate to maintain their values. Promoting Healthier Families Through Better Sleep A significant portion of the podcast focused on Kevin's venture, Harbor, which aims to improve parental well-being through better sleep. Inspired by his own experience with sleep deprivation, Kevin developed a product integrating professional guidance and innovative technology. The system offers a reliable baby monitoring solution, avoiding common issues with existing products, and introduces a concept of a remote night nanny service. This service is designed to be affordable and leverages professionally trained nurses to help parents manage nighttime challenges, ensuring better sleep for all family members. Fatherhood's Essential Bonds Kevin concluded by sharing his views on fatherhood—emphasizing a connection, love, and support as the bedrock of raising well-rounded children. He credited his own parents, his wife, and his children as his inspiration, and he offered advice to fellow fathers: Enjoy spending time with your children and cherish the fleeting nature of childhood. Parents today face numerous challenges, but as Kevin’s journey illustrates, with mindfulness, appropriate self-care, and innovative solutions, the joys of parenting can indeed be balanced with professional success. For those seeking additional support, the podcast encourages engagement with resources like the Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters community. For Fathers, By Fathers: A Beacon of Support Dads with Daughters remains committed to helping fathers navigate the beautiful complexities of raising daughters to be strong, independent women. Tune in for more inspiring stories and practical advice from fathers like Kevin Lavelle.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being on this journey with you. You and I are walking on this path to help our daughters to be those amazing women that we want them to be as they get into their adult years, and it's a process. It's definitely a process that we walk through to be able to be that dad that we wanna be and to be engaged and to be present and to be there for our daughters as they get older. And you don't have to walk that alone. That's why this podcast exists. It's here to help you to walk alongside other fathers that are either going through the process right now, have gone through the process, or other individuals that have resources that can help you again to be that dad that you wanna be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are fathering in different ways. And today, we got another great guest. Kevin Lovell is with us today, and Kevin is the cofounder and CEO of Harbour. It is a company that we're gonna learn more about today. But I love their tagline, we create happier parents and healthier families one restful night at a time. And how many of you remember, especially those young first few years when you felt like a zombie? I'm just going to put it plainly, and you felt like you were not getting any sleep, and probably you weren't getting a lot of sleep. But we're going to talk about this venture that he has been on for the last few years and what he's doing. But first 1st and foremost, we're gonna learn about him as a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here. Kevin Lavelle [00:02:01]: Thank you. A great opportunity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, Kevin, it's my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. And I know you've got 2 kids. We're gonna focus on your daughter today, but I know you've got a son as well. You got an 8 year old son and a 6 year old daughter. So you had your son first. Now I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Kevin Lavelle [00:02:26]: Really fun memory. My my wife and I, our son was a little over I don't know. He was maybe 16 months old when we found out we were going to have another child, and we both did that thing. And and I think we meant it. Then we said, you know, whether it's a boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. We're just gonna be so happy that, you know, have another. And to each their own, I wasn't into a big gender reveal party, but I did think it would be fun to learn together. And so we had her doctor email the results to someone on my team at Mizzen and Maine, and I asked him to go get flowers, you know, pink for a girl, blue for a boy, and put them in our garage so that when I came home, I was traveling, I could bring the flowers covered in a trash bag into the house and we could look at them together because my wife loves flowers. Kevin Lavelle [00:03:14]: That was the way that we were gonna learn together. And right as I was about to pull into the garage, I just had this overwhelming thought, god, I hope it's a girl. And, you know, I didn't I hadn't said anything. And right as I went to pick the flowers up in our garage, they basically kind of fell open, and I saw it was pink. And I was just overcome with joy, and I had to pretend that I didn't know. But I walked in and I opened it up, and my my wife was, absolutely overjoyed as well. And at the time, my my first company was an apparel company, so my my colleague had also put a pink shirt in there, one of our pink shirts as a company. So that was a fun way to tie that together. Kevin Lavelle [00:03:54]: And shortly after she learned it was a girl, she said, I really wanted it to be a girl. And I was like, I did too. And by the way, I found out in the garage. And so, a very fond memory, not just learning that it was going to be a girl and and, you know, knowing that we now had a son and a daughter, but, a very memorable time in our lives. And it was a very rough pregnancy for my wife. And I don't know how true this is or an old wives tale that, you know, when it's a girl, they they suck all the pretty and all the life out of you because they're they're bringing it into themselves. And we were joking because it was a much rougher pregnancy with my daughter than my son. So we we we kind of felt it might have been a girl. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:30]: Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of the fathers talk about the fact that they are that there is fear going into being a father to a daughter. Whether found or unfound, it's there. So as you think about the years that you've had with your daughter thus far and you think about your own experiences, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:04:53]: The most direct fear as she gets older, women are more vulnerable in society and all of history than men. That's just the nature of humanity and the nature of life. And so, higher fear that she could have something terrible happen to her than to my son. Although, as parents in an ever crazier and changing world, certainly, the fear exists, for both of them. But my focus, and my wife and I have the same belief, is help our kids there's a phrase, prepare the child for the road and not the road for the child. And I see it so often, especially in some of the schools that we have been in. Whether it's parents or teachers or both, they want to make sure that everything is perfect for their child rather than, how do I make my child resilient and capable of addressing whatever it is that life will bring to them. And so, everything that we can do to make them more resilient and just prepared and understand the risks that exist in the world while not being afraid of the world. Kevin Lavelle [00:05:52]: You could hide out real easily and miss out on a lot of the wonderful things that life has to offer. And and we want them to face the world with head held high and and know what they're capable of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now you're a busy guy. You're a CEO, entrepreneur. You have been involved with a couple of ventures and a couple of companies in your time as a father. And it not only takes time, effort, but it takes balance. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to balance all that you're doing in starting and creating a new company, but also in trying to be that engaged father that you wanna be. Kevin Lavelle [00:06:30]: There are lots of people much more smarter and accomplished than me than that probably have lots of specific tips and tricks. But I'll say the thing that has resonated or or stuck with me the most is accepting that I will never get it all done. And I could work round the clock and miss out on life in front of me. We lost my wife's mother now about a decade ago. And that was very young to lose her. And just understanding that life is very short and very precious. And so don't miss out on don't miss out on what's in front of you. And the age old adage, the nights are long, especially when it comes to sleeplessness in those early years, but the years are short. Kevin Lavelle [00:07:10]: And I had quite a few people say that to me when my kids were, you know, 6, 9 months old. And you're not sleeping. And it is a level of exhaustion. Even if your kids are doing well sleeping through the night, it's just so all consuming and difficult and everything is new and stressful. Sometimes, when people tell that to you in that time of life, you're like, thanks. That's super helpful. I'm barely making it in a given day. But just continuing to come back to how fortunate we are. Kevin Lavelle [00:07:35]: We have 2 healthy kids. That is in and of itself a miracle. And then, prioritizing as much as I can. I've been volunteer soccer coach for my son, taking my daughter to her gymnastics classes, and just trying to soak up the time with them because it's moving very quickly. And there's never going to be enough hours in the day to do all the things that I want to do. But making sure that when I'm with them, try to be as as present as possible. I could talk about this for hours, but those would be the biggest things that that really stand out to me. And then, I think I'd also just add, with that said, I heard a Naval Ravikant years ago podcast with somebody was saying that he does a good job of, I think in his own words, he said being appropriately selfish. Kevin Lavelle [00:08:18]: And it comes down to this analogy of put your own oxygen mask on first. If you're not sleeping and eating and taking care of your body and your mind, then you can't take care of your family. You can't be there for them. You can't be a leader. And so, I think some people end up losing sight of that and forget that they still need to have some fun. They still need to take care of themselves. They need to get sleep. Then they need to be able to sit down and read a book or chat with friends. Kevin Lavelle [00:08:44]: And and you it is very easy to lose sight of that, especially in the days of of of young kids. And ultimately, looking at some of my friends whose kids are a bit older, and they're starting to adjust to the fact that they don't spend much time with their kids anymore even though they still live at home. And so that window of time is is very short. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:02]: It is very short. And as your kids get older, you look back and say, dang it. Because, hopefully, you have taken the time to be able to build those really strong relationships, spent the time, and not focus on work or not focus on the things that you think are important at the time to be able to provide for your family, but what you come to find. And I see that even though I've been a very engaged father throughout my entire kids' lives. But as you get into the teenage years and they start pulling away, and you're not able to have as many opportunities to be able to connect and engage on a regular basis, you treasure the moments that you do have to be able to create those opportunities and have those opportunities. And they look and feel a little bit different, But you definitely want to grab them, hold them, and keep doing those things with them when they give you that opening to do it. Now I asked you about if there were any things that you were afraid of and fear in that regard. But being a parent is not always easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]: We just talked about and we'll talk more about the fact of sleep and the importance of sleep. But it's not always easy to be a father to a son, a father to a daughter. What would you say has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:10:21]: If I had to sum it up, I think overall, I would pick up 2 different angles to this. And I can hone in on it being daughter specific and also being a father specific. It's not specifically daughter related, but it is very much a central struggle to being a parent. And it's something that I see, I don't say this on a high horse, but it's something I see a lot of other parents neglect. And I can see it coming back to bite them, which is raising good, capable kids who are respectful and that you want to spend time with is there's a pretty significant amount of time that is frustrating and you have to be, you have to be the parent. You have to be the adult. You have to be the rule enforcer. You have to constantly give feedback and it's frustrating and it's challenging. Kevin Lavelle [00:11:03]: But when you don't do that, each passing day, week, month, and year, it's harder to raise good, respectful kids that are capable and, you know, you want to spend time with. Jordan Peterson, I think it was in his 12 Rules For Life, talked about you don't let your kids do things that make you like them less because you love them more than anyone else in the world. And if you let their bad behavior go, their obnoxious behavior, even annoying tendencies, if you don't help them correct those, well, guess what the rest of the world's gonna do? They're not really gonna like them either. They're not gonna want to engage with them. They're not gonna want to be friends with them. They're not gonna wanna help them, mentor them, etcetera. And so I think about this a lot, especially when I have those frustrating conversations or interactions that I have to work very hard to help them grow and flourish. And that means I'm bearing a lot of the brunt of that so that they, in the rest of the world, have people like them and want to be around them. Kevin Lavelle [00:12:01]: And one of the things that my wife and I are most proud of on an ongoing basis is when people are around our kids, they are genuinely surprised at how wonderful they are to be around. They're very respectful. We can go to very nice restaurants with them without an iPad. And they do great. And that I don't know how many times we went to a restaurant where it wasn't awesome before it started to be good. And now, it's great. And so, you know, I think with that, that is not necessarily daughter specific. I'll go with now daughter specific. Kevin Lavelle [00:12:33]: And the other key piece here is you don't raise your kids in a vacuum. And our kids go to school with other kids whose parents are fine with different approaches to language and respect and electronics and vanity and spending. And there's a when our kids spend time with certain kids, they come home with very annoying or inappropriate kind of phrases or responses. And it's getting a little bit better because they know what, they tend to understand more of what's right and wrong and what is and isn't acceptable. But when they are in school all day or they spend time with certain kids, they come home with things that we have to then work to correct. And it's not a huge problem. But, you know, when you send your kids out into the world, you have to remember they're out in the world without you. And that's why it's so important to build those innate characteristics. Kevin Lavelle [00:13:25]: And especially on the little girl front, some parents have no problem with makeup and music and things that are just not appropriate for my daughter's age. And then she's struggling with this back and forth of, well, I see my friends do it and their parents are okay with it. And you have to say, while being respectful, you can't really say, well, those are not good parents in our view. Because there's a way to say that that inspires better decision making. And there's a way to say that that could make them look down upon or feel differently about folks. That's that's not not helpful. People can parent hard, but they want to parent. My job is to take care of my kids. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]: Well, and the other thing that I think that all of us have to understand is that each of us come into parenting without a rule book, without a guide book. And depending on the model that you saw in your own experience as a child yourself, the other parents that you surround yourself with, you start to identify and create ways in which you parent based on those. And sometimes parents don't realize what they're doing or are not doing, and unless someone points it out to them as well. But I completely understand what you're saying because sometimes you do have to do that deprogramming with your kids when they get back into your home or if they've spent time even when they go to grandparents and they come home, and the rules are different there. And then they come back and are like, well, grandma and grandpa said it was okay, so why not here? And you have to deal with that as well. So I completely understand what you're saying in that regard. Now we've been talking and kinda hinting about the importance of sleep. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you are the CEO and cofounder of Harbor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: It is a organization company that is working to create happier parents and healthier families, as I said, one restful night at a time. And I remember those days with both my kids feeling like a zombie when you're trying to go to work, and you're coming home, and, you know, you're getting a few hours of sleep. And, you know, those things are very challenging, and those those days and nights can be long. And that being said, I wanted to ask you about Harbor because, like you said, you spent quite a few years at Mizzen and Main, which is a clothing company. And you pivoted after this to open your own organization and create your own company in that regard and beyond what you did at Mizzen and Main to something completely different. So talk to me about that origin story of Arbor. And what made you decide to move away from clothing and move toward something that we're talking about in regards to helping parents to get better sleep, to be able to stay connected with their children, and be able to create this new product? Kevin Lavelle [00:16:17]: So when my son was born, it was a very memorable time in my life. Also, similar to that very visceral memory of finding out my second was gonna be a girl. We were in the throes of fundraising for Mizzen and Maine. We were assigned the term sheet with our private equity firm in the delivery room for my son. And I remember pieces of that very vividly. And one of them was, I'm not the person who's going to decide the car seat or the stroller. I was helpful with my wife there where she wanted me to. But I'm more of the tech person, and I did a lot of research. Kevin Lavelle [00:16:49]: And there was a company called Nanit that had a lot of recognition and press about their very innovative baby monitor. It's a Wi Fi camera with an app on your phone. And I thought, oh, that's really neat. I like apps on my phone. That's convenient. But while someone was a couple, I don't know, weeks or months old, I can't remember the exact date that it happened. And he was in his own room. And I woke up one morning and the app on my phone, because you have to sleep next to your phone, which I don't like doing to begin with, but you have to sleep next to your phone so the app audio runs in the background. Kevin Lavelle [00:17:18]: The app had just crashed. And look, apps crash. They're not a 100% reliable. And I panicked and ran across the house. And, of course, he was fine. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. But it was a very alarming realization that this thing that I'm supposed to be able to rely on, you I can't. And so we went out that day and bought an old school Motorola camera and an old school Motorola monitor that was direct local only communication. Kevin Lavelle [00:17:46]: It does not use the Internet in any way, shape, or form. But we kept a Wi Fi camera. I got rid of the Nanit and ended up just using a Google Home device, a Nest camera, because my wife and I worked together at Mizzen and Maine. And when she came back to work, we wanted to be able to check-in on the nanny with a babysitter. You just you wanna be able to know. And not that I wanna be monitoring 20 fourseven, but technology is supposed to make our lives better. And there have been a lot of promises that have largely failed to deliver for parents. So this idea of why do I have 2 separate systems to be able to just know that I'm monitoring my kid and record and rewind and check out from outside the house? I talked to a lot of parents over the last 8 years and just sort of getting feedback and wondering what they were using. Kevin Lavelle [00:18:32]: And I found out that 20 to 30 plus percent of my friends did the same thing that I did, was have multiple systems. And in an industry and in a time of life when parents want the best for their kids, baby registries are between $3 and probably $15,000 worth of products as a first time parent. Cribs and strollers and car seats and multiple strollers and formula and and pumps and on and on and on and on. The best that parents have to offer or the best that parents have accessible to them is hacking together multiple systems that don't communicate with each other and blah blah blah. So I wanted to solve this problem since my son was born. And so what we've built is a camera and a 10 inch monitor that connect directly to each other without Internet. And both devices also connect to the Internet. So you get the best of both worlds. Kevin Lavelle [00:19:29]: It's a dedicated device that alerts you if you lose connection. And everything connects to the Internet when it's available. So we have an app. You can record. You can rewind. You get all of those benefits and features as well. I've got one right over here. I should have had it right next to me. Kevin Lavelle [00:19:44]: But it is a 10 inch monitor. So you can actually watch up to 4 different streams on one screen. You can control the zoom and the volume of each independently. There's nothing like that that exists today. And I can tell you, however bad the experience was with a Wi Fi camera with 1 child with 2, it's it's almost impossible on a tiny little iPhone screen. And we can watch up to 4. And then we put privacy first. So our camera and our tablet are both built outside of China. Kevin Lavelle [00:20:10]: They're both built with non Chinese silicon. The chips inside the device is basically the thing that powers it from a processor perspective. And then the chip in the camera is able to do all of the advanced analytics and kind of signal to noise sorting that makes our product really unique on the device locally. Meaning, it does not go through our cloud to process your information. And the the best way to think about that is like on a self driving car on a Tesla, they have cameras that process everything locally. Because if you had to send to the Internet, is that a red light or a green light? Obviously, that's not very safe from a decision making time frame. And then we also put a memory chip in the camera. So all of your memories are stored locally on the device itself. Kevin Lavelle [00:20:52]: If you wanna use our app, obviously, if you're outside the house, you will access it, and that will be remote. We're not storing it. We're not processing it. Unlike every other Wi Fi camera that exists, you are paying them to store your footage on their cloud. And in many cases, third party clouds that may not have the same level of security that you would expect. So very unique device, very unique monitor. We've really positioned ourselves as something that does not exist today for parents and started shipping mass production units to customers in September of 2024. And it's going great so far. Kevin Lavelle [00:21:24]: We've shipped thousands of devices in just a few months. And then the other thing I'll touch on very briefly for framing is that's exciting and and we think a game changer for parents. And it's been very well received. But we are using it as the foundation for what we have called a remote night nanny. So if you can afford it, an in home night nanny or night nurse is one of life's greatest blessings. It's also unaffordable for almost everybody. And a lot of people who can afford it don't want someone else in their house, or they heard a horror story and they don't feel comfortable with it. Or even if they can afford it, they can't really find someone that they would trust to come in and help take care of their child. Kevin Lavelle [00:21:57]: And the main purpose of an in home night nanny is they will listen to your baby monitor in another room, and they will go in when it is necessary and appropriate to go in. So if your child starts to fuss or cry a little bit, they'll look at the monitor. Okay. Nothing's wrong. And they basically start a timer and they wait 5, 10, 15 minutes depending on age and stage. Because if you hear a child cry and immediately run-in, you delay their ability to learn how to sleep because sleep is a skill. Just like talking and walking, you have to kind of fumble through it and you and you find your way and you develop the skill of sleeping. There's a lot of really bad information out there on the Internet about sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:22:36]: And sleep experts, legitimate ones, know you have to help the child learn how to sleep. And so, the challenges in home night nannies, if you can find 1, are $300 to $700 a night depending on where you live in the country. And it's very hard to find them as well. So, what we're doing is because we have built the hardware, after you onboard into our system, you can hire our professionally trained night nurses remotely. You press a button on the monitor, sort of like arming an alarm system, and that turns over the controls of your monitor to our professionally trained night nurses. We turn the volume on your monitor down to 0 all night long and only wake you up when a professionally trained night nurse says it's time to go in. So if something is wrong, like something falls in the crib or the baby's arm gets out of the swaddle and gets stuck in the crib slot, we're gonna wake you up immediately. Otherwise, we're gonna start the timer and we're going to wait until it is time for you to go in. Kevin Lavelle [00:23:33]: And what we have found is the 1st night, parents are adjusting to, okay, this is a little different and a little a little new. But the 2nd night, parents are telling us they've things like, I haven't slept this well since my 1st trimester. And that's because it's not just that I'm not hearing something. Because you may not go in all night long, but your child is going to make noises all night long. Kids make a lot of noise. And if you don't remember it, good for you. That's fortunate. But kids can fuss and cry off and on for hours. Kevin Lavelle [00:24:03]: Now, they're still getting sleep in between, but you're not as a parent. But what we're finding is parents are telling us, especially moms, to have a professional be the one that is helping me know when to go in rather than that anxiety and that guilt and that shame that comes with being a parent and not knowing what to do, It allowed me to really actually get deep, restful sleep for the first time in a long time. And because we have built the hardware, we have a lot of fail safes built in, the system just turns itself back on if it loses connection, And we're hiring professionally trained nurses so that we can have 1 nurse work with multiple families at the same time and bring the cost down to about 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny. So that's Harbor. A lot more to talk about there, but that's a good good roundup of what we've built here. No. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: It sounds like an amazing product, and I have not used it, and I don't need it now. And my kids would be really weirded out if I was using it at this point in their lives. But that being said, when they were very young, this sounds like a game changer. Now one question that I had when you were talking about the technology and, you know, how you had your app and that you were trying to keep it on a phone and and that it was running and then lose power and you you know, all of that story that you told. With your system, are you running off of your Wi Fi in your home, or are you running off of the Wi Fi off your phones? Because if the power goes out, then, you know, how does that all work? Kevin Lavelle [00:25:31]: Yeah. So a couple of points on the technical side. The camera and the monitor or multiple cameras are going to run off your home Wi Fi when it is strong and available. If you don't have Wi Fi, so as a point of comparison, if you have one of these Wi Fi baby monitor systems and you travel to a hotel, you can't use it because hotels will not let you tap your devices onto their Wi Fi. You can put your phone on it, but you can't run your devices on their networks from a security perspective. So the message boards online are full of parents who said, you know, just got to our hotel and realized I can't use my Nanette. I can't use my Owlette. And I had to run to Walmart to get a baby monitor because, you know, get adjoining rooms. Kevin Lavelle [00:26:11]: You gotta be able to look in. And so the camera and the monitor, one camera and one monitor, creates its own Wi Fi signal to communicate directly with each other while not requiring a separate Wi Fi network. So it has direct local communication that doesn't require the Internet. But when you're at home and your your routers are appropriately configured and and everything is running, it will just run through your home home Wi Fi. And one of the benefits there is home Wi Fi tends to be stronger. You've got it across the entire house. And our that feed does not leave your home. So if it's running on your home WiFi, it does not leave your home. Kevin Lavelle [00:26:50]: Again, we are not swearing or processing anything. If your router goes down, if your Internet goes down, then your camera will fail over to direct local communication. So when it's running through your home WiFi, it's saying, okay. I'm running through home WiFi. I've got good signal strength. All of that's measured. When it can't find that home WiFi or it's not working, then it says connect directly to the monitor. Now with a power outage, at that point in time, if you were running an app on your phone, the camera is going to fail because no baby monitor cameras come with batteries. Kevin Lavelle [00:27:23]: I'll say none. Virtually none do because batteries are a severe fire risk, especially if it's running 247. And that's why, generally, you will not see batteries in cameras in homes. And so if there's a power outage, you wouldn't necessarily be notified if you're just using a WiFi camera. But our monitor would know, hey, I've lost connection with that camera because the cameras no longer has power. I'm going to alert the parents that there's no longer a connection. Now, that doesn't mean you can do anything about it because you don't have power in your house. But now you know, and you can choose to maybe open the doors so that you can still hear, maybe bring the crib into your room. Kevin Lavelle [00:28:02]: That's then a parental decision on what happens next. But the important thing is we empower parents to know what's actually happening. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:09]: And about the night nurses, tell me about how do you identify these individuals? What type of background do they have? How are they trained to be able to provide that kind of service for families? Kevin Lavelle [00:28:18]: So we're recruiting actual nurses who have worked in pediatrics, whether in offices or hospitals. And then in some cases, they have in home night nursing experience where they have worked with families and homes. And in other cases, they just have pediatrics medical experience. And then we are training them from our professionally trained night nursing staff. So, our director of nursing has worked for years in hospitals. She was a pediatric oncology nurse. She worked as an in home care manager and as an in home night nurse. She's a Hmong herself. Kevin Lavelle [00:28:49]: And so she is working with one of our advisors and our team on training those nurses that we're bringing in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:56]: And as you said, those in home nannies or nurses that you might have inside your home can be very expensive. What's the price point on not only your system, but having this type of monitoring with night nurses to be able to assist parents? Kevin Lavelle [00:29:09]: To buy our camera and our monitor and all of our features, we do not require subscriptions or additional payments. You buy a camera and a monitor, you get everything forever. It's $599, which puts us as roughly price comparable to all the other leading systems on the market today because they require annual subscriptions. And then the remote night nanny experience, right now, is about $30 a night. You have to buy kind of packages of nights, and it works out to about $30 a night. And our long term vision is to get the cost down to $20 a night. Once we have enough people in the system and we can hire the staff and have the systems capable of working with many more families at the same time, we will continue to pass those cost savings on to our customers. And it's kind of cool. Kevin Lavelle [00:29:51]: At $20 a night, you could do 3 months of the remote night nanny for the same cost of about 1 week of an in home night nanny. And so we like to say 95% of the benefit and 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:06]: Well, it's a great value for families and definitely gives families peace of mind in regard to being able to be if you are sleeping and you get that good sleep, you're going to be able to be more present and be able to be much more attuned to what your child needs versus trying to struggle through with the lack of sleep that many parents get, especially for the 1st 6 months, 8 months, year, or more, depending on your child, that sometimes you run into. Kevin Lavelle [00:30:37]: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different studies and research, but very significant percentage of couples who get divorced say sleeplessness in the early years of childhood was a major contributing factor. The reality is a lack of sleep contributes to or exacerbates postpartum depression. It has very significant immune system impacts, durability, even to be a safe driver. When you are sleep deprived, whether you have a child or not, sleep deprived drivers can be even more dangerous than drunk drivers. And so, there's a lot from the adult side. And then on the child side, we make a big difference for parents. But on the other side, our monitor system is the kind of help parents and kids get more sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:31:14]: That's the fundamental nature of our system relative to everything else. The single best thing that you can do for your child is obviously make sure they have appropriate nutrition in those early years, in early months weeks years. The second best thing that you can do for them is make sure that they are getting the appropriate amount of sleep on a consistent basis. And that is really hard to do for most parents for a whole host of very obvious reasons. And so, when you think about a well rested child, certainly, we can imagine they are more pleasant to be around. But from a mental development perspective, from a dysregulation perspective, from an immune system perspective, from a physical health development perspective, all of those, you have to have the right nutrition and you have to have the right sleep. And if you are not supporting your child's ability to sleep through the night, you are very much hampering their health and well-being and development. And I'll say one final note on sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:32:11]: There are some very bad influencers and sleep gurus that will tell you the minute your child is crying, you need to be in there holding their hands and they will feel abandoned. Science has disproven this again and again and again. And similar to this idea of put your own oxygen mask on first, when moms don't get sleep, the propensity for postpartum depression absolutely skyrockets for all the obvious reasons. And when a mom has postpartum depression, it has a very significant impact on her ability to feed her child, nurture her child, love her child. It's a very difficult thing to go through. Obviously, there's no way that I could go through it, but it is a very understandable position that moms find themselves in. And so, these influencers and sleep gurus who, you know, propagate very bad sleep ideas, they're really harming parents' ability to get the right information and support their their families. And so, our focus is how do we help parents who want help? I'm never going to tell a parent, you're doing it wrong. Kevin Lavelle [00:33:15]: Every parent is responsible for raising their own child and we all have our own way. However, most parents are struggling and need some help. And we are here to provide very clear, unambiguous, science backed information. And we do that for free. At our website, harbor.co, we have a ton of free resources. And our mission is happier parents and healthier families. And so, we have a lot of free resources on our website. If you don't want to buy our baby monitor for any number of reasons, that's fine. Kevin Lavelle [00:33:41]: There's still a lot of great resources that you can find. And we have opportunities for parents to sign up for text based sleep coaching. If they just want to text a nurse and get some help, it's a very affordable $30 a month. You don't have to sign up for big hour long sessions or sign up for our full system, although we offer those as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:58]: Well, Kevin, I wanna say thank you for sharing all of that. If people wanna find out more about your system, the night nanny services, or anything else, where should they go? Kevin Lavelle [00:34:10]: Harbor.co. And you can find us on on the socials at harbor sleep. And we have so many great resources there. We have very robust sleep guides for infants and also toddlers. We have also formed a harbor council of pediatric sleep doctors, postpartum counselors, pediatricians, OB GYNs that have written many articles for us. And our goal is if you have a question as a parent, we don't have all the answers yet, but we have pushed a lot of great content for free online to be a great resource for parents as they need it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:45]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Yes. In one word, what is fatherhood? Kevin Lavelle [00:34:55]: Joy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:55]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:01]: I don't think I could point to, like, we were at a theme park or we were at a restaurant. To me, it's those moments where my daughter would look at me, come home from work, come home from traveling, I'm tucking her in at night. And I just see that look in her eye that says, you are my safety, you are my home. The level of connection and love there, that success is a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:24]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:28]: I believe they would say fun, strong, great. And those are the things that that I hope that they would say at their ages with their vocabulary. Some of the kind of underlying things would be that I'm supportive, that we have a lot of fun together. We laugh, chase them around the house, and that they still really want to spend time with me. They've got friends, but generally, they'd rather spend time with my wife and I than anyone else. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]: Now let's go 10 years down the road. What do you want them to say then? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:57]: As I think about this phase of life, we no longer have little kids. They're not toddlers, and they go to school full time. And my wife and I have talked about, like, we did it. We got out of the the infant and toddler and very young kid phase as best as we possibly could have. We have wonderful kids. They're respectful. They're resilient. They like to learn. Kevin Lavelle [00:36:22]: They like to have fun. They're great kids. Now, we need to prepare them to be teenagers. And so, what would I hope to feel like at that point in time? That whatever it is that our kids want to do, whether they want to go to college, whether they want to pursue a sport, whatever it is. That they are ready to go face the world and they are as prepared as they possibly could be. As I said, prepare the child for the road. And that they truly understand, as best as a, you know, 18 year old can, what it means to be happy. That they will not chase the superficial. Kevin Lavelle [00:36:54]: That they will chase the core, the meaningful, the spiritual in whatever way that is for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:00]: Now, who inspires you to be a better dad? Kevin Lavelle [00:37:03]: Certainly, I feel like I won the parent lottery. My parents raised me right. And I felt my whole life the appropriate balance of support and safety, but also go forth and conquer. My wife, she is an absolutely incredible mother, and I think a better mother than I am father. And, you know, as cliche as it is, my kids. When they show me that they want to spend time with me and that they want more of me and that they're truly grateful for the life that we have as best as young kids can, that, okay, keep going. I want to do more of it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:34]: Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that people can think about and look at ways in which they can incorporate some of those pieces into their own experience as a father. If you are talking to a father, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every father out there? Kevin Lavelle [00:37:50]: So for the dads that have kids older than me, I'm not sure how much advice I could give. But for those coming up behind me with with younger kids, I think it's a big part of what we talked about. Raise kids that you want to be around and that they love you. Like, that they are the kids that other people want to spend time with and that they want to spend time with you. That that kind of full circle. And if you do those two things, then you're doing all the other things right. And that's a good kind of metric or or baseline to seek. And as cliche as it is, it goes by really fast. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:27]: It definitely does. Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And as Kevin said, if you wanna find out more about him or about his company, go to harbor.co to find out more information about this amazing new technology and resource for you as you are working to be the best dad that you wanna be. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today. Kevin Lavelle [00:38:51]: Thanks for the opportunity and and for the inspiring work you do for dads. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:55]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:54]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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  • Raising Resilient Daughters: Lessons from Dr. Tovah Klein on Parenting and Emotional Growth
    Unlocking Emotional Strength Through Attunement and Support In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we had the privilege of hosting Dr. Tovah Klein, an esteemed professor at Barnard and author of the insightful book Raising Resilience: How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. Our conversation centered on the vital role fathers play in nurturing resilience and emotional strength in their daughters during challenging times. By delving into the essence of resilience, Dr. Klein offers invaluable advice on how fathers can become pillars of support and emotional stability for their children. The Essence of Resilience Understanding Resilience Dr. Klein defines resilience as the ability to adapt, adjust, and be flexible in the face of life's challenges. It is a critical aspect of a child's development, enabling them to navigate adversity with the emotional backing of their parents or caregivers. Rather than shielding children from every hardship, it’s crucial for fathers to allow their daughters to face small adversities, helping them build coping skills and inner strength. Attunement and Emotional Stability Attuning to Emotional Needs Dr. Klein emphasizes the importance of fathers being emotionally attuned to their children. Emotional attunement involves understanding and responding appropriately to a child's emotional cues and needs. For fathers, this means managing their personal stress and emotional states to maintain stability at home. Children require emotional availability and unconditional love to build confidence and mental health, and fathers play a pivotal role in providing this foundation. Shifting Focus and Modeling Healthy Behaviors From Work Stress to Home Serenity A key recommendation from Dr. Klein is the necessity for fathers to shift their focus away from work-related stress before engaging with their children. Modeling healthy behaviors, such as limiting screen time and prioritizing family interactions, sets an example for children to follow. Fathers should strive to be present, listen, and engage in meaningful conversations during everyday moments like car rides or bedtime, turning these instances into opportunities for connection and support. Embracing Vulnerability Teaching Through Vulnerability Dr. Klein underscores the importance of fathers displaying vulnerability. By expressing a range of emotions and acknowledging their struggles, fathers teach their daughters that it's normal to experience and cope with various feelings. This modeling helps children feel validated and understood, fostering emotional intelligence and resilience. Practical Strategies for Coping Handling Academic and Social Pressures When addressing academic struggles or peer conflicts, Dr. Klein advises fathers to listen and validate their children's feelings rather than solve every issue for them. Encouraging daughters to learn from their experiences and take pride in their achievements, even during adversity, builds their problem-solving skills and resilience. Conflict with peers is natural and can lead to stronger friendships as children learn to navigate and resolve disputes on their own. Empowering Fathers, Empowering Daughters As fathers, the role you play in your daughters’ lives is immensely significant. By being emotionally attuned, modeling healthy behaviors, and embracing vulnerability, you empower your daughters to develop resilience and emotional strength. These foundational skills enable them to face life's uncertainties with confidence and adaptability. For more resources on enhancing your parenting journey, visit Dr. Klein's website tovahklein.com, and consider joining support communities like The Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters Facebook group. Together, let’s raise a generation of strong, resilient young women. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' wives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you, and walk on this path that you're on. And I call it a path. It's a journey. We're all on it together as we're raising our daughters to be that those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And it's not always going to be easy. There's gonna be bumps in the road. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And but in the end, each and every one of us is working to try to help our children to be able to be self reliant. And one of the topics we're gonna talk about today, resilient as they get older. And every week I love being able to bring you different guests that can help you to do just that. Sometimes we have dads on. Sometimes we have others that have amazing resources that can help you to do just that. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Tovah Klein is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: And Tovah is a professor at Barnard, as well as we're going as well as a author of a new book called raising resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. I'm really excited to have her on and to introduce her to you. Tovah, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:01:40]: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well. Because as you heard, this podcast is all about raising strong, independent women. And part of that is being able to give our kids the keys to, well, I'm gonna say the castle in regards to helping them to be resilient in the things that they're going to come up against. And there are definitely going to be things that they're going to come up against. And there's some of those are gonna be positive. Some may be negative and some may be somewhere in between. And I'm really excited to be able to delve a little bit deeper into this book that you've put out into the world. But I think I wanna step back in time just a little bit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]: And first I wanna have you define resiliency because you know, this book is called raising resilience and every person that hears that word resilience may have a different thought in their mind of what that means. And then I'd love to hear your origin story. I wanna hear why this topic and why you wanted to put all the time, passion, effort into putting this out into the world? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:02:37]: So when I think of resilience, what I really think about is the whole person, the whole child. And resilience is not like a trait or a dose or something that you say, you know, I'm 1 or I'm a 6. It's actually a part of who we raise our children to be. It's about adaptability, adjustment, flexibility. You can think of it as opening up their thinking, but it's being able to move with whatever life gives them. And as you just said, life's gonna give them good and not so good. And so, really, when we think about preparing our children for life, we love them, We do all kinds of kind of things for them, but really what we want is for them to be able to handle the hardest parts of life, and that's what we call resilience. It's a process to help them develop it, but also that adjustment, adaptability, flexibility allows them to face hurdles and shift, face hurdles and shift, knowing that they're not alone in the world. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:03:38]: They're not doing this themselves, but with originally a parent or whoever is the main caregiver, and then in life, other people who can be there for them. So that's really how I think about resilience is this dynamic piece of self that gets developed over time. Actually, I've been in the field for almost 3 decades now working first with young children and parents, and my research was always centered around young children and that really important influence of parents on them. And then as careers change, I started working with, you know, older children and parents, and that just broadened my thinking. And one day came to this sudden realization that really what parents were doing is helping children prepare for uncertainty. Like, every single day is uncertain. And I have kind of 2, I would say, areas that I'm passionate about and I've spent my life in. One is kind of everyday, normal development challenges, stressful moments. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:04:41]: And then the other piece, which I always saw as related, was working with families in traumatic situations, so either individual trauma from, you know, abuse or hurts, or fleeing a fire or a flood, but also collective trauma. So children and families after 911, I've done work now in COVID, which when I started conceptualizing the book, I had not yet, but, you know, sort of large scale traumatic events. And when I put those 2 together, I realized that the piece that happens in trauma, whether that's a severe crisis and you've just fled a hurricane and those roads washed out, or you're getting through a normal day with 3 children of different ages and you're trying to get out the door, you're always dealing with uncertainty, and it's very destabilizing. And then that what I got to is, like, oh, then what we're doing every single day in our relationship with our child, whether we know it or not, is helping them prepare for life, which is gonna unfortunately have bad things happen in it, and we want them to be able to handle. We want them to be able to people to turn to. So the book started out really about uncertainty, wrote a proposal, kind of put it aside, you know, life gets in the way, work gets in the way. Then when COVID hit, it really became very clear to me that uncertainty was here to stay, or I thought it was here to stay, and I felt like I needed to get back to this book. But when I started writing, and my contract, you know, got a contract with HarperCollins, the editors kept saying to me, you know, everything you write about is about resilience. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:13]: And I pushed back saying, you know, that's really a buzzword. And I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in writing a book about how do we raise decent human in writing a book about how do we raise decent human beings? What does that mean for parents? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:19]: What does that mean for children? And what I meant by that was children who grow up with a strong voice and ability to take care of themselves and have confidence and, equally, an ability to look to others and be kind and compassionate and aware of their community. And they said, yes, but everything you're writing about is resilience. And so I said, okay. I'm gonna take it out of that buzzword, and I'm gonna really unpack what does resilience mean, and what does that parent relationship or caregiver relationship mean in terms of raising that child because so much of this is about us as parents, and that had been the life work I've been doing is really studying and working with everyday parents to understand what we bring to this as parents, because that then drives how we see our children, how we either do or don't accept them for who they are, and children have to be accepted for who they are. And so what's the work we we must do on ourselves to understand ourselves so that we become that buffer between the world and what the world gives us and children so that there's stress, but it's not overwhelming stress for children. And that's really how this book came to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: Now one of the things in the book that you talk about and that you emphasize is the role of parental attunement in building resilience. How would you say that fathers in particular can attune to their children's emotional needs during challenging times? And what specific strategies can they use to be more emotionally available? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:07:58]: Yeah. It's such an important question because, you know, as you know, as a father and a and a podcaster with fathers listening, for so long, the field of psychology didn't even know that fathers existed, or they were sort of like, oh, yeah. But we know now from experience and equally from the research that a loving parent matters and fathers matter. And so this idea of attunement, particularly when times are stressful, really means starting with self. And I think the the challenge for some dads, I think not always, but is that boys are raised into becoming men who aren't really taught or told, oh, you're supposed to feel feelings. Feelings are okay. This this is human. And so doing the work to say, oh, how am I doing? How am I feeling? Can I ground myself as a dad so that I can turn to my child and figure out what my child needs? Because often as parents, when we're upset, we go for control. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:09:00]: Right? If I'm feeling really rattled, if there's a lot of uncertainty, every parent, male, female, non binary, like, every parent who feels unsteady kind of we kind of go for, what can I control? And when you take a step back as a dad and you say, okay. I'm the one who's stressed here. How can I get a little steadier so I can turn to my child and then say, what does this child need for me to protect them right now? Not protect them by keeping everything out, but by saying, right now, we're not sure what's happening. People are getting sick and we're not sure why, but what I know is that by staying home, I'm gonna keep you safe, and we're gonna still have our meals together, and I'm gonna still put you to bed. It reassures a child that even when there's bad things going on, this parent is close to help them, and that's what children need. We always think of it in young children. Children need it across ages, for us to say I'm here for you even though this is scary or stressful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:59]: So some of what you were just talking about, those emotional barriers or the walls that sometimes some men put up, it's not always easy for some men to break those down. And to be, as we've talked about on the show before, is vulnerable with those around them. And from what you just said, really, to me, what I'm hearing is the importance of being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability with your kids. Because by showing that vulnerability, it equates to allowing and providing your kids a glimpse of resiliency in many different ways. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:10:36]: Yeah. You'd summarized that very well, actually, which is we have to be vulnerable in order to say, oh, what am I feeling? And, you know, I read something recently that said being vulnerable is the opposite of cool, you know, being cool. Because being cool is kinda putting on, like, armor of some kind. Like, you know, I got this. You know, I'm a cool person. Being vulnerable says, I'm gonna show you and myself all of me. And all of me is not always parts that we're proud of or that we feel good about, but they're part of us. So right now, you're a father and something's going on in your life or in the world, you have to say, look, I'm a little scared, you know, to yourself or to a partner or to a friend. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:18]: I'm a little scared, but I know I have to take care of these children. So I'm gonna figure out what that's about so I can turn to my child and say, yeah. This is unknown, and we're gonna figure it out together. And it's that vulnerability that allows us to be full people. What it shows to the child is it's okay to have this range of emotions, of, you know, reactions, and that that's life. Life is not about covering up how you're feeling. Life is not about pretending. Oh, no. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:49]: No. No. I'm not upset. It's just the opposite. It's saying, you know, I am upset. And even if I can't do what I wanna do, I know that daddy is gonna love me even though I'm upset right now. And so when fathers model that, children go, oh, it's okay to fall down, to fail, to feel really dumb. Whatever it is, it has to be modeled for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now also in the book, you talk a lot about how adversity can actually make children more resilient. Can you share some examples of how fathers can help their children to reframe difficult situations? And it could be something like it could be peer conflict, it could be academic struggles, it could be other aspects that they're going to run into. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:12:36]: So I think, you know, one of the biggies on the academic side is, you know, your child comes home, your daughter comes home from pick a grade and says, like, I'm just stupid. I can't do math. This is very stereotypical and yet happens all the time for girls, for adolescents and younger girls. I'm stupid. I can't do this. You know, and as a dad, you might think, oh, maybe maybe I shouldn't push her to take that harder math that she wanted to take. You know, maybe I should just say to her, oh, honey, you know, you don't have to take algebra, advanced, or whatever it is. Instead, you can say, like, yeah, that is hard, and learning is a hard process, and be there with them. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:15]: So some of it is listening. You know, we tend to want to problem solve. I know, there's all kinds of jokes about, you know, men and dads wanting to problem solve, but I always say, well, moms do that, too, you know, but, you know, that's sort of the stereotype of, of males. And what we don't do as parents well enough is listen. So it may be listening to your daughter really cry, scream, tear the paper up if they still have paper tests, and then say, yeah, this is there's no question this is hard. Maybe you recall a story from your own. Oh, yeah. I remember when I got to quadratic equations, and, woah, I thought I'm the dumbest person in the world, but I wasn't. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:54]: And it's holding them through that, allowing them to have all of those emotions, and then some sense of tomorrow might be better is what I call it. Right? So let's see how it goes tomorrow. Do you wanna talk to the teacher? Tomorrow, you're in the moment. It's like, no. You know? They just wanna vent, and you let them vent. But the next day when they go back to school, they may actually come back and say, hey. I got my test back, and I didn't do well, but I didn't do the worst. Or I got problems right. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:21]: I was sure I got wrong. You go, oh, really? What you learned from that? Oh, okay. And you have to have this, like, almost like a humorous distance. Right? You don't wanna say I told you so or I knew it, but you can say, yeah. You know? That's gotta feel great. So what are you thinking next time? Or if you wanna think through studying differently, let me know. And then the child builds on that. Oh, I actually didn't do as poorly on that test as I thought. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:48]: The dad wasn't there going, oh, it's only because you were tired. Like, we love to make excuses for our children. We either blame them, like I told you to go to bed earlier, or we make excuses. Oh, remember you weren't feeling so well. And all of that works against a child saying, I faced something. It was hard. I don't love my score in that test, but I'm actually proud of the things I did get right, and I'm gonna study a little differently next time. That's strength. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:15:14]: Fighting with friends, children do it all the time. And in fact, the data we have with younger children is that they fight more with the people they're closest to. So they don't really fight so much over, you know, building a block tower or how to organize the playground game if it's somebody they're not friends with because it's not worth their energy. But they can get into pretty heated fights with people that they're friends with or that they play with a lot, and then they come back together. Why? Because they want to. The motivation is I might have thrown you out and said I never wanna see you again or talk to you again yesterday, but today, you're my friend again. And it's even stronger because we've been through this conflict, and we've we've resolved it. And so I think as a father to know that it's not about the problem solving, but to to listen, to say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:09]: If you want my help, I'm here. But to recognize that you have to wait for the child to come in and say, I really do wanna play with her tomorrow. Oh, okay. Well, you know, do you want wanna think about what helped you last time with that friend and and to talk it through. And I see it all the time now with with social media and teenagers. You know, when I hear my kids or my college students, I teach at a women's college, so I have all these incredible young women. You know, that term ghosting, which was new to me in my generation probably shows, like, what? But with ghosting, it's almost like there's a brick wall. And so sometimes I say to a teenager, like, is there a way to take a step back and maybe try another day to reach that friend? Because it sounds like that really was a friend. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:55]: So it doesn't have to be the message is this doesn't have to be forever. And I think dads have to give that message when it's appropriate. Right? You're really heated now, but I'm wondering if in some time and initially, the the child goes, no way, but then they may come back to you and say, yeah, I was thinking about what you said. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: You know, one of the things I was thinking about, and it kinda goes into some of the things you wrote too, was the fact that more and more you hear today about the mental health concerns in young people and the rising concerns about mental health and the struggles that young people are having. What would you say to fathers about how they can contribute to create a supportive environment at home that fosters both emotional intelligence and emotional component. You know, I say it in my book, these 5 pillars, but the first is building trust, right? That's what every father is doing with their child. They're building trust in this relationship. Like, even when things go awry between us, I'm here for you. You know, putting your child to bed at night or going into check on your teenager really can be about, boy, we had some rough spots today, and you know, I'm sorry, and I still love you. All of those disconnections that get repaired, reconnecting are really core for our children and particularly, I'm gonna say, for our girls, because they need to know conflict is part of life. That's where you get this emotional attunement, which is, yeah, we were angry before, you were really mad at me, and now we're back together, and we're good. This is part of it. You're not, like, overlooking it. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:18:40]: But I think the other piece at home is that we tend to put a lot of pressure on our children, particularly firstborns. Not always, but particularly firstborns. Right? They're our first ones. They make us a parent. You know what I'm saying? Before that first one, there was no such thing as I'm a parent. Now I'm a daddy. You might have subsequent children, but the first ones are kind of our reflection. They go out in the world, we feel great when they're doing well, and we like smile. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:06]: And then when they're not doing well, we're like, we feel terrible, but also, we tend to blame them. Don't do it that way. So I think for dads to really think about, when am I too hard on my child or my children, and when am I putting too much pressure on them? Because we live in a very competitive world, you know, certainly academically and just there's all this messaging about mental health, which we should be concerned about. But there's equally messaging about, there's only one way to get to the top, or if you're not at the top, you won't succeed. And it's a total lie. It's just a lie. And I feel like if every per parent, every dad could say to their child, there's lots of ways to be okay in the world. You know, some people are really great at sports. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:50]: Some are really great at math. Some just enjoy it. Like, we've taken the joy out of learning or doing. So I think at home to really think about, can I bring the pressure down? Can I find moments of joy together? Like, you're much better off having a dance party, if that's what your children like to do, or have a backwards dinner. This is I grew up with backwards dinners occasionally, and they were just such a joy, or can we take a different path to get to where we're going today, and who wants to map it out? And even if you get lost on the way, that's funny. That's really funny, you know. So where can you have those moments of shared joy, and then I'm gonna get back to listening. We don't listen to children. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:29]: They're not busy people. Dads are busy. Maybe you have work or maybe home is work. You've got a couple of kids or you've got one who's got some special needs right now and you're trying to figure those out and you're taking them to different therapists. Whatever it is, we're busy. And what gets lost is what I call the space in between, which is like getting there. You know, maybe that's in the car or it's, you know, you walk to school or to a doctor's appointment or something. In those moments, there's a lot of time to connect and listen to your child. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:59]: And so putting more of that in or thinking, like, do I really wanna rush through bedtime with my 8 year old? Or can I slow it down and so they go to bed 10 minutes later? Anything at home that brings down the pressure and gets parents to exhale and the dads to say, just wanna connect with you. I don't really care what you eat for dinner. I'm gonna serve it. I'm not gonna take it personally if you don't need it, and I'm gonna listen to you today. So the lighter we are with children, the better. And it also opens them up to talk more. And we say, you know, we ask them questions, they shut down. They're like, I'm not answering you, daddy. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:21:32]: But when we sit down at dinner and say something funny that happened I I'm just thinking of my husband used to sit down and he'd go like, I'm gonna tell you the funniest thing that happened today. And it would just be this, like, beat fact of some kind. Then the children would start talking because nobody asked anything of them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:47]: Earlier, you talked about fathers trying to protect their kids. And I think that the word protect means different things for different men. But I guess one thing that I think that many men feel is that they need to protect their kids from hardships, from that they need to protect them from getting hurt. How can fathers reconcile that instinct with some of the approaches that you're talking about, about allowing kids to face adversity as a means of building resilience? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:22:20]: So much of this is about work on themselves. Right? Of course, we wanna protect our children. There's a part of any dad in particular because what's the function of a daddy to love a child and keep them safe? And to say, you're not gonna always be with them. You're not gonna always be there to protect them. So what can I do to help them deal with the little hurts and the smaller hurdles and the smaller adversities now is to back off and let the child deal with them? So, I'll give an example. You know, that term bully gets used a lot. Now, there are some children who really are victims to being bullied, but every child potentially is going to have meanness in their life from other children and from themselves, by the way. I think we do a disservice when we tell children that's mean, that's mean, that's mean because it scares the child. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:23:09]: Well, what if I don't like my friend today? And then am I a horrible person for telling them I don't like them? No. They're not horrible people. They may be standing up for themselves. So when we step back, and if a dad steps back and says, what's worrying me so much about my child getting hurt? Because every dad brings their full self to being a dad. And so it's really about saying, what's the really, what is the harm that I'm worried about? And usually, it's I remember how bad that was being left out, or I was terrible at athletics, which is takes in a whole other life for men than it does for women, right, because boys are supposed to be athletic. Right? So if you were that child who was left out or you were that kind of outsider peer who didn't really feel like you belonged, we then get more worried for our children, and we jump very quickly. So I think being aware of self, and that's what I call in my book, The You Factor, those are I have all these reflective questions there for dads, for moms, for anybody taking care of children. What is it that I bring? Because when we don't give children this opportunity to handle the smaller hurts, even when the child thinks they're big hurts you know, my friend wouldn't play with me today. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:24:22]: He starts young and goes all the way through adolescence and then becomes part of social media. But to say, yeah, that's really crummy. Sometimes that happens. And to have some empathic, but genuinely empathic, but also, I'm gonna sit by you, but I'm not gonna take this away. I'm not gonna march up to the school and speak to the teacher unless I hear it as a pattern and I'm really getting concerned. Or as I often say to to a parent, you know, to a dad, just check-in with the school and see what the school says, if it's a school that, you know, you're comfortable with or the counselor, you know, the the middle school or a high school counselor. But when we don't let children deal with these smaller stressors, hurts, you know, not doing as well as they wanted, not getting the teacher they wanted, but then they might actually find that teacher is not so bad. It actually strengthens children to say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:13]: I got through that. I figured that out, or I didn't like that teacher because she yelled more than I liked, but, actually, she was a really great teacher, and I learned to deal with the fact that she yelled a lot. That's where strength comes from, that children see people are complicated. And I think as dads, the role is to help them see, yeah, people are complicated. Maybe your friend had a bad day today. Doesn't mean she should've been like that with you, but maybe she had a bad day. Do you wanna see if tomorrow's better? Gives them a world view of, you could have a bad day, and I don't want people vilifying you, and other people also are sometimes hurtful. That doesn't mean they're hurtful all the time, and that strengthens children. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:53]: The other thing it does is it helps them use voice. If you never face adversity, you never have to say, hey. I don't agree with that, or you can't do that to me. And I actually think that this huge part of resilience, which is confidence and the ability to stand up for yourself, comes from learning to do it, and it starts off in smaller ways. I well, now I said I didn't wanna play basketball today, and then I basketball today, and then I finally walked away. I just said I'm not gonna play. It's a smaller way to use voice because when people are doing things to you that you don't like, we wanna be sure that our children, the daughters say, absolutely not. You can't do that to me, and not feel like I'm being a mean person. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:26:31]: We do give them double messages, particularly to girls. Be nice. Be nice. Now stand up for yourself. And I see girls getting confused with that. And it's like, well, actually, you can do both. You can be a kind, decent person, and that's not in opposition to saying no, or I don't like that, or can we talk about this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]: So what I'm hearing you say is that there really are a lot of tensions, a lot of things that can impact a child in many different ways, whether it be familial tensions, whether it could be tensions from outside the home, whether that that are impacting the child directly, or even world events that may be causing strife, and are impacting your child, whether you like it or not, as as you're thinking about that, or how can fathers take a proactive role in addressing those external those external stressors while still being able to maintain some sense of stability? Some some sense of some sense of stability at home? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:27:36]: Yeah. I mean, that's a big question, obviously. You know, what are those stressors? But I'll start with sort of the innermost or the most intimate, which is your personal stressors. And here's your first level of uncertainty. Like, we change. You know, dads change. You might be calm at some days and a little more frantic or a lot more frantic others. So part of that is being truly in tune with self as best you can and not being hard on yourself when you're not. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:06]: So, oh, I'm stressed. Why am I stressed? And then what can I change? Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. But I find that more often than not, a dad could change something. Yeah. You know what? I keep saying that I can't bring the work stress down, but I'm gonna have to, and I'm gonna find a way, or I am gonna help ask for help. If there's a group of people who probably don't ask for help enough, it's parents, and then dads on top of that. Right? They don't say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:33]: Can I ask my neighbor to take my child to the bus stop or pick my child up today or, you know, I'm gonna be late for my child's band concert? Could you let her know I'm still coming? Right? So any way to turn to others for help can help. But then there's the wider world, and that's a lot of self work. I mean, there's a lot going on in the world that is scary. There's no question. And with news being 247 in in our faces, I think it's up to us as the parents. So to the dads to say, okay. I'm a news junkie. I've gotta take some of these notifications off my phone. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:11]: I've gotta come up with a way that when I walk in the door and I've got children now to connect to, I've gotta find a place to put my phone. And by the way, that's modeling for when your children have their own phones. It's very hard to say to children, when we walk in, we put our phones here if the dad doesn't do it, because they just call they'll call you out right away. You don't do that. So it's becoming aware of what's stressing you, what's scaring you, and how can you shift in dealing with it. It's a very intentional process. How do I get my feet planted? How do I exhale? 1, I'm just thinking of a dad I worked with for years, and and the first time he called me, he said, you know, I manage this huge group of people. He's in construction, this huge group of people, and I tell them what to do. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:56]: And I'm, you know, in the car driving home telling, you know, putting out fires or whatever. And then I get home and no one listens to me, and I said, can you put the phone down, like, a mile away so that the last part of your drive, you're shifting focus? And then when you get to the door of your house, you exhale and say, I'm going in now, to 2 children who won't listen to me. So you're literally intentionally exhaling, switching modes, and getting some humor because that actually that calm or calmer it doesn't read perfect calm is felt by the children, and they feel they feel that dad walking in the door. They feel that dad who's stressed at the dinner table, and so it's really a very intentional process. And again, I think it's something that men in in particular are not raised with. Like, you are gonna be the emotional sustenance for your children, and you are. And so to take that in and say, wow, what a privilege, what a great thing, and wow, That means I have to be aware of myself because the more emotionally attuned a dad is, particularly for those daughters, the more they feel loved and respected. And in their worst moments, they really need to feel that. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:10]: Like, I really messed up. They wanna know that this is unconditional love. I still love you. Yeah. That was a mess up. We're in this together. I'm not gonna leave leave you or abandon you because you had a, you know, rotten day or set of events, And that's what bolsters mental health too. I'm loved even when I'm my worst self for the children. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:30]: Well, Tovah, there's a ton to unpack here, and I really appreciate you coming and talking about all of this. And I know that, this book can definitely help so many fathers and mothers and parents in general to better connect with their kids, but also help their kids in a lot of ways. If people wanna find out more about the book itself, where's the best place for them to go? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:56]: Yeah. Well, the easiest place is to go to my website, Tovahklein.com. That's Tovahklein.com. And the book is sold wherever books are sold. So you can get online at your local book store. And if you go to my website, you've bought the book, you just put in your receipt, whatever receipt it is, and there's a free download for something that I call the UFACTOR journal. And that's all the reflective questions from the book and a place to either write out answers or just have the questions there to reflect on. And I will say I got an email this week from a couple who wrote to me and said that a mom and a dad couple, were doing the reflective questions together and then coming together and discussing them, and it's been good for our marriage. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:32:42]: So I thought, oh, that's really great. Because reflecting on self makes you a stronger person, which makes you a better dad. No question. And shedding vulnerability, because sometimes reflecting on yourself does not feel so great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]: So true. Well, I truly want to say thank you. Thank you for writing this and helping parents to connect with their kids in this better way, but also for sharing this with us today for being here and for challenging us to think about resilience in a different way as well. And I wish you all the best. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:33:14]: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:15]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. Dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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  • Capturing Childhood Magic: Vincent Micelli and Daughters on Shared Stories and Lasting Memories
    Reflections on Cherishing Childhood Moments In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, guest Vincent Micelli and his daughters Matea and Luciana, delved into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood. This episode not only offered heartfelt reflections but also provided listeners with actionable advice on parenting and savoring the fleeting moments of childhood. The Fleeting Nature of Childhood Vincent Micelli poignantly reflected on the transient nature of childhood, emphasizing the profound importance of savoring each moment with your children. He discussed how rapidly these formative years fly by and stressed the significance of being present for your child's "firsts" – first steps, first words, and first days of school. For Vincent, these cherished moments form the core of fatherhood, creating a lifetime of memories that contribute to a deep bond between parent and child. Understanding Individuality Matea Micelli highlighted the critical role of recognizing and nurturing a child's unique personality and interests. Tailoring parenting approaches to suit each child's needs fosters a more profound connection and understanding. Matea’s advocacy for individualized parenting rather than generalizing roles resonated strongly with the podcast's underlying message of active, engaged fatherhood. Building Lasting Memories Through Small Moments Luciana Micelli emphasized the importance of small, everyday moments and their role in building enduring memories. She shared how simple activities like playing games or indulging in familial bonding became the foundations of their strong relationships. These seemingly mundane experiences not only enriched. The Last Triceracorn: A Family Project Reaches the World The series, titled The Last Triceracorn Book 1 and Book 2, seamlessly integrates elements from the Micelli family's life, blending fantasy with real-life experiences and adventures. Characters like Zuko, the magical bear, and Esta Colo, inspired by Matea’s childhood fascination with shadows, create a magical narrative imbued with personal significance. After more than a decade away from writing these bedtime stories, Vincent and his daughters brought their world to life in a printed form. “It was a way to capture the magic of our family’s daily life,” he noted. The self-publishing experience, though originally a Plan B, turned into a remarkable family project and bonding opportunity. Dads with Daughters doesn’t just offer advice; it provides a community where fathers can share their stories and learn from each other. Vincent Micelli’s journey with his daughters underscores the podcast's essential message—every moment counts, and with the right support, any father can leave a lasting legacy. The tale of The Last Triceracorn is more than a series of books; it's a testament to the power of family, storytelling, and unwavering support. Vincent Micelli’s story is an inspiring example for fathers everywhere, proving that with effort and love, you can turn dreams into reality and moments into lasting memories.
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  • Making the Most of the Holiday Season with Your Daughters
    Prioritizing Presence Over Presents As we approach the holiday season, the hustle and bustle of gift-giving can often overshadow what truly matters—being present. Just a reminder to cherish moments with our children, whether that’s through family traditions, snowy escapades, or heartfelt conversations. These memories are the true treasures that shape our daughters’ lives. Taking a Meaningful Break We will be taking a short hiatus for the podcast and I encourage you to immerse yourselvef fully in the season's magic. This is definitely not the end of the podcast, but a chance to recharge and return with renewed energy and insights in the new year. Resources for Reflection and Growth To continue your growth as a dad even during the break, I suggest youo explore the Fatherhood Insider resource. This platform offers an extensive course library, interactive forums, and actionable roadmaps tailored for fathers navigating the complexities of parenthood. Join the Community Don’t forget to connect with fellow dads by joining the Dads with Daughters Facebook community. It’s a space to share experiences, seek advice, and find inspiration from other fathers who are equally committed to raising empowered daughters. Check the podcast notes for a direct link. Embrace the Joy of Fatherhood This holiday season, let’s focus on the laughter and love that fill our homes. Appreciate the simple moments and remember that being a dad is a gift that keeps on giving. Happy holidays from the Dads with Daughters family to yours.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Hey, Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Dads with Daughters, where we bring you stories, tips, and inspiration for raising strong, independent women and helping you to be the best dads that you can be along the way. I just wanted to take a moment to connect with you as we approach the holiday season. It's such a special time of year. And if you're like me, it's also a time to reflect on what really matters, family, friends, and those precious moments we get to spend together. This season, I'm making it a priority to be present with my loved ones, and I want to encourage you to do the same. Whether it's watching holiday movies with your daughters, building a snowman, or just sitting down for a quiet conversation. These are the memories our kids will carry with them forever. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: To give myself and all of us a chance to really soak in the magic of the season, Dads with Daughters will be taking a short break over the next few weeks. Don't worry, we'll be back in the new year for more amazing guests, stories and insights to empower you in your fatherhood journey. Until then, I want to wish you and your family a truly joyful holiday season. May it be filled with laughter, love, and those simple moments that remind us why being a dad is the greatest gift of all. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Your support, your stories and your dedication to being present with your daughters inspire me every single day. Take care, be safe, and from all of us here at Dads with Daughters, happy holidays. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.
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  • Empowering Daughters Through Consent and Communication with Katie Koestner
    In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcomed Katie Koestner, an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation, who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent, autonomy, and resilience. Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation. Understanding Consent and Autonomy Katie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy. Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted; it can be revoked at any moment. Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape, highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent. This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries. Healing from Trauma: A Collective Journey Healing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support. Katie reflects on her own experiences, noting that regaining power and control over one's life is a long-term commitment. It's essential for parents, especially fathers, to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency. Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively, emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes. Mentorship and Community Involvement Community involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women. Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity. Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support, which are critical for personal empowerment. Fostering Equal and Respectful Relationships To raise daughters who thrive in healthy, respectful relationships, fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be "taken care of." Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships. It's crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives, reflecting these values in everyday interactions. Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration, mutual respect, and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes. Practical Tools for Empowerment Katie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters. She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents, energy, and intellect, rather than appearance. Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently. Katie's conversation with Dr. Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter's self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently. Take Back the Night and Advocacy Katie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation, which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors. She encourages community involvement in various forms, such as bike races, walks, and vigils, to promote solidarity and resilience. Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters, fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence. In conclusion, the episode with Katie Koestner on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered, resilient daughters. Through understanding consent, supporting the healing process, fostering respectful relationships, and active community involvement, fathers can profoundly impact their daughters' lives, guiding them toward independence and confidence. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And, you know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and work with you as you're walking through this journey that you're on to be the best dad that you want to be, and working with your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be as well. That's why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down, talk, and to be able to learn and grow from each other, but also from the people that come on to our show. And it is really important that we're open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in, internalize it, and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey. And today, we've got another great guest with us. Katie Kessler is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:22]: And Katie is a activist on sexual assault. She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation. She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation. She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships, but also to be safe in their lives as they get older. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we're moving forward in our own parenting journey. Katie, thanks so much for being here today. Katie Koestner [00:02:07]: Absolutely. Chris, thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to share your story because it's not an easy story. And definitely, it's not I'm sure it's not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you've become in sexual assault. And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story, but only you can tell that story in your way. Can you tell tell me a little bit more? Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault? Katie Koestner [00:02:43]: Absolutely. I am delighted to do so. So I think for all the dads out there, importantly, I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom. I grew up outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in middle school, and I had a younger sister. I was pretty darn ambitious in every way, and, loved, I would say, everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT. I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school. I was adventurous in every sort of the word. I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry. Katie Koestner [00:03:34]: And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience, and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages, wanted to be a brain surgeon, played a great game of soccer, incredible, potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly, you know, went out and hung out with him. And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest, most expensive French restaurant in town. And any of you who don't know my story, I'm not gonna share all of it here because it's on TED Talks, and I've only lectured at 5,000 schools, and I'm sure there's clips here and there. I've been on open Good Morning, American, CNN, NBC News, lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC, at the United Nations, at the Pentagon, just a few places along the way. But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy. He paid for a very expensive dinner, and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married. I wasn't drunk at dinner nor that night. And I simply told this guy no. Katie Koestner [00:04:39]: And for historic purposes, I'm sure I am older than many of the dads, who are listening. I might be younger than a few, but I was 18, and this was 1990. And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18. So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now, when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent, whether this, perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad. But, unfortunately, back then, my dad said I shouldn't have had the boy to my room and it wouldn't have happened. And while I think he probably had mixed emotions, and I don't wanna oversimplify, I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative, which means in high school, if a boy came to get me, he would probably fingerprint the guy's the front doorknob. He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door. He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up. Katie Koestner [00:05:59]: He was easily intimidating to most guys. So before I go on, I I would say that my dad's never heard me speak in all my life, which is hard, and it's one of my motivations for coming on your show, Chris, because I have two main themes that I would get across, and then we can delve into the details. But I'm gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me. My father told me what to do in regard to boys. He was very protective, and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school. Maybe that's because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times, But I will also say to all the dads, protecting your daughter does not serve her. She's gonna have to do it herself at some point. And if not in high school, then when? So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own, you are gonna have a much stronger, resilient, confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen. Katie Koestner [00:07:11]: You want her to navigate the hard situation, to come home that night or next morning at breakfast, and to say, dad, I did it all by myself. Sensed this one comment he made. I was around his friends who were making fun of women, and I knew better that this was not what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. Do you want her to say that when what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. You want her to say that when she's 14, when she's 16, and then you'll know when she goes off into the world, she's gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to. But I would send her out on every date saying, you've got this. You deserve respect. It's not about your appearance. Katie Koestner [00:07:58]: It's about your amazing talent, your energy, your grace, and your brilliance. If you compliment her just on her appearance, you're gonna teach a frail daughter. I don't care how pretty she is, but you've got to compliment her on something other than that. So I start with, dads, don't protect your daughters. Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves. And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times. Be mindful of what you watch, what screens you're on, how you do or don't comment on women in movies, women in television, women in the media, women in politics, women in your work workforce. What do you say about women that's the same or different from men? And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms, the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect. Katie Koestner [00:08:57]: And then lastly, even if you're separated from the birth mother of your daughter, even if she is the worst person you've ever met, God forbid, always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they're wrongfully treating you, even if they're a train wreck of a human, it's really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong. So sorry that was a mouthful, Chris, but, like, I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be. And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own. I have 16 year old twins. They're not girls. They're boys. And so I I'm on the flip side of your your equation. I'm a mom of boys, not a dad of a daughter, but I think we could talk about that later on is, like, how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates, if they if they actually like boys, who knows? What does that look like? Because I'm raising my sons. Katie Koestner [00:10:02]: I think they're both into girls, maybe not quite so much yet, but I I think that's the track they're on. I'm not too judgy. People are people, but I definitely want them to be somebody's best date and best memory even if they're not in men. I want them to be good, humble, respectful young men, and that's what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they're into men into boys. So and don't look me up if your daughter wants a date. Like, my boys are not once, like, ready for, like, full time studying and the other one's too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet. So don't look me up for dates for your daughter. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: I love what you shared right there. And I think and I have to say, I'm sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways. And you talked about the fact that for you, one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself, to be able to navigate situations by herself. I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself? And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters? Katie Koestner [00:11:29]: Yeah. Fantastic question, Chris. And this is called, I would say, one of those conversations of courage. And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation. And, I mean, I'm gonna be honest. A lot of people aren't comfortable with their own sexualities, their own relationships, and and men and women both. And I'll footnote it with this. If you're a dad and wants to have what I'm about to describe with your daughter, And you're like, oh, crap. Katie Koestner [00:11:55]: I totally can't do that. I don't have that vocabulary. I couldn't come up with that sentence structure. This makes me feel awkward. I I could look I'd be, like, so nervous. Like, that's totally okay. Not everybody has to be you know, not everyone's a brain surgeon. Not everyone's a psychologist. Katie Koestner [00:12:10]: Not everyone's into like, you everybody has different skill sets. What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say, if I don't think I can say this, I should at least tell my daughter. There's a few things I'm really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast. Push play, like, right here. Like, oh, I've listened to this woman, Katie, once, and she was trying to say it. I I can't do it the same way, but pretend it's my voice and I'm your dad. And, like, seriously, I don't I don't care. You it takes a team of, like, 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid, and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try. Katie Koestner [00:12:54]: I intend to do this. I tried to do this. I might not be great at it. People will see your intent and that you tried. So here's kind of what I would say. You said, how could my dad have done it? And it's very simple. You'd you say, like, she's really interested in a guy or somebody, a date, a prospect. She's going out to a party. Katie Koestner [00:13:11]: She's going to her first homecoming. She's going to the think of any number of potential social situations. The best thing you can say is, darling, sweetie, whatever you say. Jenny, Susie, you know, Aloysius, whatever her name is. You say, I know tonight's really important. I don't know how many of these kind of social things you've done, but what's really important to me is that you know you are that good. You know you deserve respect. You know what your morals, your values are. Katie Koestner [00:13:40]: You know what you want to to have happen tonight. Keep that in mind throughout the whole time. You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive, respected. You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow's gonna be a great day. And if someone treats you at all with disrespect, you know that you don't have to take it. You don't have to stay in that environment. There's never an okay reason where someone should say anything that's degrading. No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and you can navigate a way out. Katie Koestner [00:14:12]: If you want to, we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight. If you think you're all set, I'm here a phone call away, a text away if you need me. That's all. You just just remind her she's worth it. Put her eye on the prize, which is, like, at the end of the night, she wants to come home safe, respected, and tomorrow is gonna be a great day. And that's it. You don't have to go into the nitty gritty. You don't have to say, like, what if he tries to like, girls might feel awkward about that. Katie Koestner [00:14:40]: That could be a different class. Like, if somebody tried to touch you, how are you gonna if she wants to go there. But if you're just on square one, that's all you have to say. It's like, you've got this. Not like go, oh, you look so pretty, sweetie. You don't need don't say her dress is great, her skirt's cute, her hair looks great. That's fine, But, really, more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day. Like, whatever the event is, focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected. Katie Koestner [00:15:12]: Not like I mean, do logistics. How's she gonna get home? Who's driving? What happens? You could do some logistics. But if you just constantly say you deserve respect, you're amazing, you're talented, how do you want this night to end? Just focus on the the finish line all the time. I mean, what do athletes do? What it what's anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed. And succeed is, like, be safe and not be assaulted and have fun. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: Now one of the things you talked about in your story, you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college, kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways. And then you talked about the importance of really as you're parenting and as you're working, not in in our situation here, in my situation, working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship, whether it be with a man, with a woman, whatever it might be. I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you've spoken to on your podcast, Dear Katie, survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places. What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships. Katie Koestner [00:16:41]: A healthy relationship, you're gonna hear a lot of working together, collaboration. It's not me, me, me, me. The partner or guy who's all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging, he's actually frail. Like, frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play. And anyone who simply talks about themselves, their achievements, it's fine to be a high achiever. That's great. It's fine to be talented and smart, but it's really important to find a partner who's also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented, also brilliant, also smart, and wants to, like, do things collaboratively, not for. You know, old school men are like, I'll do this for you. Katie Koestner [00:17:30]: I'll take care of you. That language is dead. Nobody should be taken care of anymore. We're not in the dark ages. So I think the woman today needs to dad to say, you've got this on your own, and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator, not a take care of her because no one's gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you're being purchased, essentially. Being taken care of means you have less power, less equality, less confidence. No one needs to be taken care of. I think that this is not to say, and I wanna nuance this, you can have 2 totally different lanes. Katie Koestner [00:18:08]: And I'll even go so far as to say it's fine if one is a full time stay at home parent, and all they want to be is a, maybe, full time mom. I wanna have 5 kids. I wanna bake cookies. I wanna clean the house. I wanna be the PTA. I wanna do all I wanna volunteer. That's all fine as long as it's a pure choice. So, I mean, the gender roles, who cares? But the idea is, is there respect and valuation that's equitable between the partners? And that's a lot that's thinking way ahead. Katie Koestner [00:18:40]: But at the root of a relationship, when you start out, you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do? How does he or they see what I do? And if she's being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her, that's gonna only cripple her long term safety and success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: I appreciate that as well because I think you're right. I mean, I know in my own situation with my own daughters, I don't want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned. I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships. And Katie Koestner [00:19:15]: Yeah. I think what I'd like to say, Chris, is it's gloriously amazing to be the power couple. Seriously, who wouldn't want that? You see you see a few that are still, like, kept wise and, you know, people kind of pity them now. Nobody's like, oh, what a glorious, fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll, hence the movie. But I think it's an age of glorious and we went through some individual like, you might go back. We're so old, Chris. Like, the eighties, you know, we had all the, like, me, me, me's. Then we had you know, the decades are interesting when we look back at them, but I think we're we're hopefully going into an age of this amazing it's the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful. Katie Koestner [00:20:08]: And I do think, you know, partnerships and relationships can be that good. It's really there's no such thing as a renaissance person anymore. Like, it's impossible. We have micro slices of everything in the world. So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated, kind, amazing, committed people who say, like, things are gonna get hard. That's I actually, that brings me to a really good point. Fights are good. Disagreements because you know why? The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like, oh my god. Katie Koestner [00:20:39]: He made me so mad. You that's good. That's like, okay. Well, how did how did you resolve it? Because if you can't work together and not that's the tell. That's like the next level tell. If you have to think about the first date tells, like, where he makes some random joke or he can't pay look you in the eye if he's checking his phone every second. If he's asking you who your follow these are warning signs. Is he gonna say, why are you following him? What do you see? Like, jealousy is a really bad one. Katie Koestner [00:21:08]: Telling, like, why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends. That's a big red flag. Like, if a guy goes out with you and I mean, hello. It's it's 2024. Like, if you can't have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade, and I was, like, the only girl. So I only hung out with boys, and I was not dating the entire chess club. Let me just tell you. No. Katie Koestner [00:21:34]: It was not like that. I was just like, these are the cool, smart guys. Like, I know. And luckily, back then, I had male friends, but I think you've gotta have a male partner who's good. You can talk to a guy and not be jealous. Like, even if he's cuter than you. Even if he's better at soccer than you. Like, who cares? Like, a secure guy is what you want. Katie Koestner [00:21:56]: He's not constantly jealous because he's ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays. That I would say that's another one. I'm thinking small things. I don't care about, like, send you flowers and open the door. Who cares? Sometimes people get hung up on, like, oh my god. I can't see the guy who holds the door. I'm like, give it up. Like, he's just trying to be nice. Katie Koestner [00:22:16]: Hold the door for him. If he sends you flowers, send him flowers. I think you break all the rules. And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can't get flowers, what's wrong with you? Again, it's 2024. I mean, maybe you don't wanna paint your nails blue as a guy, but that's fine. But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes, there's going to be a problem down the road. And I think building in that, like, wow, creativity is helpful because later in life, the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age, Chris, you bet they're gonna get really dry and boring if they don't have a creative open mind. You wanna see all of those awesome traits. Katie Koestner [00:22:56]: I guess I last thing is do pay attention. I hate to say this, but many rapists, we didn't talk about this, many rapists themselves were also victimized. So do pay attention. No. It's a little bit let's say a few stats. Like, 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime. About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same. Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators. Katie Koestner [00:23:22]: And the 1 in 4 women, a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you've had it happen once, there's such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman. Many women turn that against themselves, their shame and blame, and many men turn it outward as anger. So a young man's own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find. I mean, you don't wanna, like, quiz him on the first date and give him an interview, but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother, how do they treat their mother? If they have a father, how do they treat their father? How do they do they fight constantly? Is there a lot of tension? I hate to say it. It's not what they what do your parents look like? Because then I'll know how you look when you look old. Okay. That's fine. If the girl's like, I wanna see your dad. Katie Koestner [00:24:10]: Is he bald to know if he'll be bald? No offense taken. But, like, I think that's so not important. I mean, it is more important to see how they interact, though, with their siblings and with their parents. That part's really important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]: You know, those numbers are really staggering. And, you know, when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma, I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat, how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say, I've experienced this trauma? Katie Koestner [00:24:46]: Okay. Two best sentences ever. Ready? 1 is well, 3. 1st is, I'm so glad you trusted me enough to tell me. 2nd is, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And thirdly is, what can I do to help you right now? That's it. And then everything else you're gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone's gonna be different. The situation might be urgent. Katie Koestner [00:25:08]: It might be immediate danger. It might be and I'll just nutshell it this way. There's 3 things to think about all the time. First one and I'll do them in order of expiration date. If it's recent, medical attention is paramount. Medical attention also means collecting evidence. You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected. It's free. Katie Koestner [00:25:29]: It's done at usually a hospital rape crisis center. It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years. There's no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney. But if you don't get the evidence, it can't be used later. And that's important because what many of the dads thinking about right now, it may not make sense. 84% of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows. Trust, likes, not a stranger off the street. So if you get your thinking evidence collected, well, we already know who it is. Katie Koestner [00:25:57]: Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in, whether she was asleep, passed out, if she was up against a wall. Like, all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent. So medical, medical, medical. And then, of course, pregnancy, STIs, all potential and have them looked at immediately. And, obviously, we've got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies, including through rape across the country. So you'll have to think about what state you're in and what your okay. So that's first. And second after medical is reporting options. Katie Koestner [00:26:39]: If it's within 8 years, most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution. If a girl is a minor when this happens, it might even be longer. But mindfully, let's nuance this a little bit. Let's say she's 14 and her boyfriend's 17. That could be statutory rape in most states, even if it's her boyfriend. So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend, that technically could be rape in most every state in the country. I'm not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him, if you find out they had sex, but I'm just letting you know. If indeed it was an adult, let's say it was her 30 year old soccer coach, that's definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor, and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer. Katie Koestner [00:27:25]: It can be entirely a whole lifetime. So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute. Luckily, luckily, Take Back the Night, the foundation has started. The, the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot. It's over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors. But over 20 years ago, I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation. But we, about 4 years ago, also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline. So that is so important. Katie Koestner [00:28:02]: It's 1567 shatter for any dad listening. That's free. It's confidential, and it puts you through to an attorney who's steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options. I just put that out there in case someone's all of a sudden interested. But that that's criminal. Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice. So I think of them as the 3 c's. We have the criminal system, then secondly, we have the civil system. Katie Koestner [00:28:30]: Civil is where let's say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school. She could potentially sue the school. You you know, you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things. A civil suit, you usually just have 2 years. Again, there's some exceptions. The third one, though, is the campus reporting system. If it's a college, you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college, you can report it and have some sort of adjudication. If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school, same deal. Katie Koestner [00:29:05]: There's also a school campus system. So remember, criminal, civil, and campus are three areas where you can report. And that legal support hotline I just mentioned, 567 shatter, is a great option to learn about any and all. The third thing so we did first is medical attention. 2nd is reporting. The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing. There's no expiration date. Obviously, that can be done anytime. Katie Koestner [00:29:33]: There's no one size fits all. It could be their rabbi. It could be their priest. It could be a professional rape crisis counselor. It could be online BetterHelp. It could be there's a million different ways to get emotional support, but it takes more than one person to heal. Meaning, the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to. And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling. Katie Koestner [00:29:57]: You're a secondary trauma victim. You're trying to help your daughter, and it can feel exhausting. So don't hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children. You know, it can be so devastating and frustrating, and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, eating disorders, like metal, all kinds of depression, it can be really rough. Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:28]: One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important. And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children's bodies and helping them to understand that. What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world? Katie Koestner [00:30:53]: Well, some schools do a really good job of consent education. Many do not. But essentially, that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case, when I was raped at William and Mary, the entire country and William and Mary's policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property. That's the history of it. You know, when you hear the phrase damaged goods, damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin. She'd be more expensive to marry off, and that's where that phrase came from. And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago, Chris, and said, I'm not damaged goods. And if a man doesn't wanna marry me, I don't wanna marry him. Katie Koestner [00:31:37]: And why is rape the only crime where force is required? If I reached out and said, give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it, I wouldn't have to you wouldn't have to say, well, she punched me to take it. If I took your wallet, I stole from you. Like, whether or not you, like, had a very nice gold watch on, you could be, you know, wearing expensive clothes. No one could say, oh, you must give away lots of money and be rich. Why would you miss your wallet? You were asking for it. But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent, not the action of resistance. And dads, dads, dads, that's critical. Your daughter doesn't have to fight off her attacker, and she doesn't even have to say no even though that would be great, I'm sure, in your minds. Katie Koestner [00:32:26]: But if she freezes up and doesn't feel like she can do anything and just lays there, that's still not consent. So it's really important for you to validate. Like, don't rank how she responded. Like, if only you had been, like, superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and, like, your steel belt, you know, and gotten the guy. Like, who cares? It's over. It was still wrong. It's not, like, more wrong or less wrong. It's just wrong wrong. Katie Koestner [00:32:53]: So all rape is wrong wrong. There's not like, oh my gosh. I here's a fun story, Chris. In all the education I do, one time I was talking to some boys in high school, and one was like, but, you know, what if she leads me on? And I just get it's I'm I'm at the point in a return. And I said, oh my gosh. That's so that sounds so interesting. Like so let's just run this through. Like, imagine you're over at your girlfriend's house and you're making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town, like, for dinner or something. Katie Koestner [00:33:22]: They're out out, and you 2 were just going at it, and you're at this point, you know, return. And then all of a sudden, at the back door, you hear the jingling of the keys. The parents are unexpectedly home. I said, young man, I know exactly what you would do. You'd holler out, like, mister and missus Smith, you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes? I'm almost done with your daughter, and it's the point of no return for me, and I just can't stop right now. You know, like, the absurdity. Right? Like, any there's no such thing. We're not animals. Katie Koestner [00:33:50]: We can totally stop. Even if it's uncomfortable, awkward, embarrassing, horrible, there's no such thing as we're not out of our mind and body having sex. So I think it's really important to tell your daughter, like, if all of a sudden it's hurting, if it doesn't feel good, whatever her I don't know what the values of your dads are, but whatever they are, she should know. There's no point at which it's too late to say no. I say when someone said to me, Chris, once, they said, when is rape regret? And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards. Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don't stop. If you change your mind after after and say, I shouldn't have done that, that's regret. It's not rape. Katie Koestner [00:34:31]: If you change your mind, 5 minutes in, if they keep going, it's still rape. So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear, but I think if they can talk to their daughter, and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads, but just put the podcast on again. This is sex ed consent ed 101. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]: You know, the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time, and it takes effort. And it's it's, something that's going to be a multi year entire life situation. So talk to me about the process that you had to go through, but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power, regaining your life, but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey? Katie Koestner [00:35:21]: I'll start with the last part of your question first. Things dads should not do is take away agency. Meaning, here's the difference and nuance there. Taking away agency, it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do. Taking weight, that's taking away agency. Giving agency means let's make a list together and let's do the research. If you're up for it, help me do the research. If not, I'm the dad. Katie Koestner [00:35:47]: I I'll take this on. I'll make the whole list of options that I can find. Then I'll review them. Let's think about them together. The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim. The more you here here's a good small point. If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail, let let's say the traditional dad reaction, we need to put him in jail. You know what? The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail. Katie Koestner [00:36:19]: The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime. This is the tough reality. It's fine. So jail time is not likely. However, the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored. And so often, I think I hate to ever stereotype men, but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process. Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through. You know, that's a total stereotype. Katie Koestner [00:36:52]: Women are like, I just wanna talk to you about this. I don't need an answer, and I wanna get men better at like, I'm very outcome driven, Chris. Like, seriously, like, I'm just one on the SAT. I'm a math girl. I'm a science girl. I like the data. I like to crunch the numbers. I like to win. Katie Koestner [00:37:09]: I like to be successful. I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people. You know, I'm very, very driven. So but I also like the process because what I did helped. So I'll go back now to the other part of your question. So dads should sit with the process. Don't take away the agency. Don't provide the outcome. Katie Koestner [00:37:27]: Don't get to the finish line. Let your daughter run the marathon herself. She's got to. However, what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me. So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet, go to the library, get some books, read law books at the law school at William and Mary. I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this. And I got there in high school and in middle school. Like, I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they're like, do everything. Katie Koestner [00:38:04]: They always said you're never good enough, but they were they were also like, do everything. They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT. I wanted to go to MIT. Sorry. Well, they said we don't have enough money for MIT, and there's not enough girls there. That's what my mom said. Anyway, that aside, I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything. I changed laws. Katie Koestner [00:38:27]: I tested on in Capitol Hill. If you read that Time Magazine, you'll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I'm only 18 years old. I made a movie with HBO about my story. No one helped me. I just did it. I went to New York City to get that picture taken. I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive. I stunk at it. Katie Koestner [00:38:47]: I was a terrible debater. I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors. I became a rape crisis counselor. I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college. I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion, and I won't say I deleted everything else. I'm very lucky. I still was getting a's and still going to classes and still am doing everything else. But I think that by burying things, we hurt more. Katie Koestner [00:39:17]: The wound does not heal with a patch. The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it. And who cares? Like, that's a great scar. You got through it. You survived, and you went on. For a while, I wanna go back one thing. Your daughter might go through a phase. Why in the blank did this have to happen to me? Is there something wrong with me? And you've simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people. Katie Koestner [00:39:42]: It's not you. You're unfortunately, my dear, you're not special. It happens to 25% of women. So it's just you were one of those, but let's makes it had to happen for you. Let's why? Let's do something with this. Let's make it into something more. Let's make it part of who you are in a positive way. And and and I would and here's a way that I think about that. Katie Koestner [00:40:02]: If someone you care a lot about in your life dies, like your grandmother, your auntie, you don't say when are you gonna get over it. That pain, that horrible gap in your heart, no one says, when are you gonna stop missing your grandma? That's wrong. Big losses in life, you're like, how do you honor her? Big losses, we honor them if we're on the right path. We figure out what's glorious about that, about her, about that experience, and what goes forward. That's the way to to spin anything. And and and and even for the dads who fortunately, hopefully, don't have daughters in distress, start teaching her how to spin everything that's bad into positive as fast as possible. Get over it. It's not you. Katie Koestner [00:40:43]: It's them. How do I navigate a different path? If I don't like what I'm on, how do I change the lanes? That is resiliency. I'll say, like now I'll also say this for any dad who's still listening to me. Your daughter's I have a 14 year old intern on my team. She is magnificent. She helps with my podcast, and I mentor, if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world, join the Take Back the Night team. We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya. We have Benter who does our like, it's so cool and amazing. Katie Koestner [00:41:15]: We empower every single woman, and and we teach them business skills. And if your daughter can't like, how about flourishing with fabulous, like, international global women, young women? Like, we have amazing women. I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer, but my gosh, we have a team of, like, 50. They're so we put them on teams. Like, your daughter should be around, like, if she's on into sports. Like, what team is she on? Don't let her isolate. Don't let her find her heart just in one boy. Like, put her around amazing people who are gonna push her, help her thrive. Katie Koestner [00:41:57]: That's gonna make her really amazing. So I'm just plugging, like, I don't care if it's Take Back the Night. I do care if it's something. Just find some way to put around, not just singing. I know. Not pooh poohing singing. I can't sing at all. I can't do singing. Katie Koestner [00:42:15]: I can't do car wheels. But I I think, you know, it's putting around people who will push her in a positive way. Honor her spirit, push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way. Like, all of the things you want. Right? Like, those are all great things. They're very idealistic. If you can't tell, I'm very positive that the glass is always almost full. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:40]: Well, Katie, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey, but sharing all of this amazing insight today. If people wanna find out more about you, your story, your organization, where should they go to find out more? Katie Koestner [00:42:53]: Love, love that. First of all, believe it or not, I still go around the country and speak. I just got back from speaking in Nantucket. How fun was that? I took a ferry to my speech. That's the first time I could say that. But I think I love speaking, but I also have a team of speakers. So if you want more education in your community, that is either Google Katie Koestner, my name, or you can go right to campus outreach services, and that's education and awareness. There's tons of ideas there. Katie Koestner [00:43:23]: 2nd idea, take back the night. We are always eager to have more volunteers, more financial support. Go read about the hotline and coolness. You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community. We have a whole team who will help you. It's just a one day event of awareness. You could do a bike race. You can do a walk. Katie Koestner [00:43:42]: You can do a vigil. You can have it at your church. You can have it at your school. You can have it at your business, but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness. So I encourage everybody to do that as well. But thank you, Chris. This is fabulous. This is so much fun. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:58]: Well, I truly appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all the work that you're doing to support so many across the globe, and I wish you all the best. Katie Koestner [00:44:06]: Absolutely. Take care. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:08]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:57]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:06]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:59]: Be the best dad you can be.
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Dads with Daughters strives to create a supportive online community that highlights promising practices for fathers to better understand themselves and their daughters while encouraging and helping fathers be active participants in their daughters lives raising them to be strong independent women.
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