The VBAC Link

Flannery joins us today from Connecticut sharing her story of an unexpected C-section at 35 weeks due to oligohydramnios, breech presentation, and concerns with her baby’s kidney functions. She was also transferred to an unfamiliar hospital for its surgical capabilities. Though she was terrified, her anesthesiologist was calm and reassuring. The toughest memory of Flannery’s birth was not being able to kiss her baby before he was swept away to the NICU. She was determined to do everything in her power not to have that happen again the second time. Knowing she had a bicornuate uterus, she worked hard to keep her baby’s head down from the very beginning of her second pregnancy. She switched to a midwife practice, carried her baby past her due date, went into spontaneous labor, and had an intensely beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC!NICU Free ParkingTypes of Uterine ShapesAFI ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have our friend from Connecticut. And you know what? I didn’t ask. How do you say your name? Flannery: It’s Flannery. Meagan: That’s how I was going to say it. Flannery: Yes, good job. Meagan: We have our friend, Flannery, here from Connecticut and she has a bicornuate uterus. This week’s focus is on different shaped uteruses or uterine abnormalities as I’m air quoting. We know that people have them. People have different-shaped uteruses. Sometimes that can impact things like breech babies or even a provider’s ability to support– I don’t want to say ability. It’s their willingness to support, especially in VBAC. We’re going to be diving into that. She’s also a NICU mama so for other NICU mamas, she might have some tips for you along the way. She just told me before this that she was a labor and delivery nurse before she had her first. Flannery: Yep, and then I switched over. Meagan: Now she switched over to postpartum. She knows the field, so we might talk a little bit about labor and delivery nursing and the postpartum world. Flannery: Yeah, definitely. Meagan: Awesome. Okay, well let’s get into your stories. Flannery: Okay, thank you. I’m so excited. I would listen to this podcast all the time when I was pregnant. At the end, when they say, “If you’d like to share your VBAC story–” and I would say, “I will be sharing my VBAC stories someday.” Meagan: I love that. “I will be sharing my story”, and here you are sharing with all of the other Women of Strength coming to learn and grow and feel empowered. Flannery: Yeah, I loved it. My first pregnancy was actually an unplanned pregnancy. I had just gotten married. I just started a labor and delivery nurse job. I was noticing that I wasn’t feeling great, that I had some bleeding which I thought was my period, so I just was like, “You know what? Let me take a pregnancy test just to reassure myself because there is no way that it will be positive.” It was, and I was so shocked. I remember taking the tests, seeing the two lines, and my heart dropping. I thought to myself, “I am not ready to be a mom. I can’t believe that I am having an unplanned pregnancy. This is so crazy.” I was only 25 which I know is not that young, but up here in Connecticut, it’s pretty young. Meagan: Is it really? What’s the average for first-time moms? Can I ask?Flannery: I’m guessing 30-32. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: None of my friends had babies yet or anything, so I felt very alone and obviously very shocked. Yeah. I had no idea how far along I was. I went to the dating ultrasound with my husband at the hospital where I worked, and they put the wand on my belly. There was a full baby in there. It wasn’t a bean. It wasn’t a little heartbeat, but it was a baby. They said, “You’re 11.5 weeks along.” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Really?Flannery: Yeah. I was beyond shocked. Meagan, I had no idea that I was pregnant. I didn’t have any symptoms. I was having some bleeding, so I thought that had been my period, but nope. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Was it implantation bleeding? But then that would be too late. Flannery: I don’t know. I think maybe just how some people get first-trimester spotting or bleeding after sex or exercise or something. I’m thinking that’s what it was. Meagan: Crazy. Flannery: I know. I had skipped the first trimester, and that terrified me because I wasn’t on a prenatal. I was having some wine. I was just like, “How could I have missed this? This is embarrassing. I’m a nurse.” Meagan: “I’m a nurse.” Hey, listen. It happens. People talk about it. I’m sure that was such a shock not only to see those two pink lines and that you were not having babies with any of your friends, but then you skipped the whole first trimester. Flannery: Crazy. It was crazy. It took a while to wrap our heads around it. Then during the ultrasound, hearing the ultrasound tech saying, “Have you ever had an ultrasound of your uterus before?” I was like, “No,” not thinking anything of it, just focusing on the baby, and then I got a call from my doctor a few days later, and she was like, “So, it looks like you have a bicornuate uterus. Have you ever heard of that?” I was like, “No. I’ve never heard of that before.” She said, “Basically, your uterus is shaped like a heart, and it should be shaped like a balloon.” I was like, “Okay. That doesn’t sound too bad.” We hung up. I went on Google and Googled “bicornuate uterus”, and let’s just say the stuff that comes up is not reassuring at all. It’s so scary. It says things like, “Risk of preterm delivery. Risk of stillbirth. Risk of infertility. Risk of malpresentation.” It just went on and on. Postpartum hemorrhage, and all of this stuff, so I really broke down. I remember just crying and crying to my husband, “I’ve had this crazy birth defect my whole life, and I’ve never known it.” I didn’t know how it was going to impact my birth or anything. That was definitely scary.Meagan: Did they tell you anything about how it could impact your pregnancy or your birth? Flannery: Not really. This was a general GP doctor that I was seeing, so she didn’t really go into it with me, but I definitely spoke about it to the midwives that I was seeing once I established care with them. They were just like, “Yeah, it can cause baby to be breech.” That was all they told me about it. Meagan: Okay. Flannery: Yeah. I was doing a lot of research looking for podcasts and everything about bicornuate uterus and all of the things that go along with it, but I couldn’t really find much. This was a few years ago, so maybe three or four podcast episodes about bicornuate uterus, breech, and malformation. I think now there are more, but at the time, it was really hard to find information. Meagan: Yeah. I still feel like it’s 2024. What year are we in? We are almost in 2025. We are in 2024, and it still is. There is still not a ton. It’s not a beefy topic. Flannery: No, it’s really not. I think that some people don’t know they have it until they get pregnant which was in my case, and they have an ultrasound. It’s hard to tell later on in pregnancy if you have it because your baby will stretch out the uterine space, so you can really only tell in the first trimester if you have an ultrasound. Meagan: Interesting. Good to know. Flannery: So my pregnancy progressed pretty normally after that. I was very stressed at this new job in labor and delivery that I was working in. I was seeing really scary births all of the time, traumatic births, and some good ones too, but it put this idea in my head that you cannot plan your birth. Things are so out of your control that there’s no reason to have a plan because you’re just going to be disappointed anyway. All you can do is go with the flow. That was my attitude at the time. It’s definitely changed since then. It was definitely interesting trying to be a first-time mom and also learn how to be a labor and delivery nurse and reconcile the two experiences that I was seeing. Meagan: I bet. Flannery: Yeah. Meagan: I bet that would be really challenging. Flannery: It was. It was interesting. I established care with some midwives who I worked with. They were highly recommended, but I didn’t really feel like they were giving me the midwife experience that I had heard so many people rave about. I felt like they really treated me like a coworker instead of a first-time mom when I was going to their appointments. I was fine with their care. I wouldn’t say it was the best or the worst by any means. Then I realized around 25-26 weeks, “Gosh. I’m really feeling this rock under my ribs all the time. I think that’s the baby’s head. I think the baby is breech.” Then at 28 weeks, I had a growth scan because you have to have growth scans if you have a bicornuate uterus, and they were like, “Yeah, sure enough, the baby is breech.” The midwives told me, “Okay, you can do some Spinning Babies and put an ice pack near the baby’s head and play music down low,” and all of those crazy things that you hear. I was like, “Yeah, sure. Okay, I’ll try it.” I did a few inversions, but they gave me terrible heartburn, so I was not super consistent with that. The baby just wasn’t budging week after week. Eventually, it came to about 35 weeks, and I was getting another growth scan. I had just worked a very tiring shift at work. I went to get my ultrasound. I was dozing off as she did it. She stopped the ultrasound, and she said, “I’m going to send you over to your midwife’s office. Go over right now.” I walked over, and the midwife was like, “Girl, what’s going on?” I was like, “I don’t know. I just had this pit in my stomach, but I had no clue what was going on.” She was like, “You have no fluid. Get back to the hospital. You’re going in as a patient now, and we’re going to try to rehydrate you.” I was like, “What? What is going on? No fluid? What does that mean?” I guess they had found in ultrasound that my baby’s left kidney was super dilated, and my fluid was low which is called oligohydramnios. I know you’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but I think they measure it with an AFI. It’s supposed to be over 8. Mine was a 4. Meagan: Really low. Yeah, below 5. But they were just going to rehydrate you. They weren’t going to induce you? Flannery: Not yet, no. They wouldn’t have induced me anyway because my baby was breech. Meagan: Which is good. They wouldn’t. Yeah. Flannery: They were going to try to rehydrate me first and see how that went. It did, and they decided to give me some steroid shots too. My favorite midwife came in, and she said, “We’re going to do these steroid shots, and we’re going to see if the rehydrating works. I know you’ve been working hard. Maybe this is just a dehydration situation because you haven’t been able to take care of yourself properly.” I was like, “Okay”, then she made a comment about delivery at 37 weeks. I was like, “Oh, this is a delivery-type situation.” It had really not sunk in with me yet that this was that serious. She was like, “Yes. Oligohydramnios can cause stillbirth. It’s very serious. Probably what we are looking at is two weeks of monitoring, and then delivery at 37 weeks which will be a C-section unless your baby flips.” I was like, “Oh my god. Okay.” Meagan: Yeah. But with the fluid, did they want to continue giving you fluid? Did they encourage your hydration with electrolytes and everything? Flannery: Yes, they did. I was chugging water like a maniac for a few days and coconut water and all of this stuff and getting IV fluid. It did come back up a little bit to a 6, maybe. Meagan: I was going to say, did it fix it at all?Flannery: I was still getting a bunch of ultrasounds, then it went right back down to a 4. They said, “We’re going to have you consult with maternal-fetal medicine at a bigger hospital on March 9th. My baby was due April 11th, but this was a lot earlier than I was expecting anything to happen. We went to this appointment to get this more detailed ultrasound, and the doctor comes in. She seems very nervous. That’s not what you want. You don’t want a doctor to seem nervous.No. She’s like, “It looks like your baby’s left kidney is non-functional. It’s just a cluster of cysts.” Meagan: Oh no. Flannery: I was like, “Oh my god.” I was so terrified. I just had no clue. This didn’t show up on the 20-week ultrasound or anything. She was like, “And your fluid is still super low.” We did an NST. They sent us home, and I was just waiting around at home with my husband for my midwife to call to make a plan. I was like, “Am I going back to work tomorrow? Am I going to be having this baby?” She called me, and she was like, “So, this isn’t what I was expecting to tell you today, but I’ve been consulting with the neonatologist here and some OBs. Since you’ve already had your steroid shots, we want you to go to the hospital now to have your baby tonight.” She was like, “Don’t rush down the highway in the snow. This is an urgent, not an emergent situation. You’ll be in good hands.” I was like, “What in the world?” I was so taken aback. I didn’t believe it. They were also transferring me to a different hospital from the one that I had worked at and had planned to deliver at. Meagan: Is it because of the NICU situation?Flannery: Because of the NICU, yeah. This bigger hospital had the capability for surgery, and my hospital did not. It was a situation where it was a small hospital and a situation that they weren’t really comfortable with. We hopped in the car and drove through this big snowstorm. I was just crying and shaking. We had no idea. We were both terrified. We had no idea what we were about to walk into.When we met our OB, she walked into the room. She just radiated calmness and kindness and peace. She was just an angel. She made us feel so safe. They were monitoring the baby and putting my IV in. I was still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I was having a baby tonight. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: I was wondering, “Is this baby going to be okay? What is going on here?” We walked down the hall to the OR. I kissed my husband goodbye. I remember just thinking, “Okay. Here we go. There’s no going back now.” The only way I could stay calm was to surrender any of the control that I thought I had and really just trust in God and trust in the people who were going to do the surgery on me. I lay down on the table and the anesthesiologist was so kind. He was petting my head and talking to me. My husband came in and they were setting up the drapes. My doctor who I had just met leaned her head over and she said, “This is where I had my first daughter.” That just made me feel so happy. Things are going to be normal again. She had a C-section too. It made me feel very safe. Everything went really well during the operation. I remember I could see the reflection of the operation in the lights that they have above you. I bet other moms will know what I am talking about, but they have these big OR lights, and I could kind of see what they were doing which was crazy.Meagan: You can. They’re like mirrors. Flannery: I know. They should come up with something better. Meagan: Yes. For those who don’t want to watch or see anything, just turn to the side. Flannery: Close your eyes. Meagan: Close your eyes. Turn to the side. Flannery: Yeah. They said, “After a few minutes, okay. Here he comes. Then he’s out.” I didn’t hear anything. I heard someone say, “Okay. I need to take him.” I could tell that was the neonatalogist saying they needed to work on him a little bit. They took him over to a corner where we couldn’t see or hear anything that was going on. We could just hear people talking. Eventually, we heard a little cry. My husband started to cry. I looked at him, and I smiled. I just felt relief that he was alive, but I didn’t feel anything. I just felt this nothingness. Meagan: I can so relate to that. Flannery: Yeah. It’s so strange. It’s just not what you’re hoping to feel in this big important moment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flannery: I remember the neonatalogist after a while, he was breathing on his own. He had peed and pooped. They showed us pictures of him. She walked over with him in his arms in this little bundle of blankets. She stood pretty far away, maybe 6 or 10 feet away. She was like, “Okay. You know the plan. We need to check his kidneys in the NICU. What’s his name?” I said, “I don’t know. I need to see his face.” She flashed the blanket at me and flashed it down so I could see his face. I couldn’t see anything. I said, “I don’t know. I don’t know what his name is,” and she walked out with him. That is just the worst memory from that whole experience. The surgery itself was really good. The care I had was great, but I’ll never get that moment back. She could have brought him over to give me a kiss or see his face. It was hours until– Meagan: Touch or kiss his face.Flannery: It was so long until I could see him and meet him in the NICU. I just think about that all of the time. I did get to go meet him after a few hours. He was doing great. I didn’t recognize him at first when my husband rolled me over to his isolet in the NICU which was hard, but as soon as I held him, I just had this overwhelming rush of love. It hasn’t changed to this day. He’s just such a joy.He turned out to be fine. His kidney was normal. It’s resolved on its own, and it wasn’t a cluster of cysts like they had thought. Meagan: Yay.Flannery: Yeah. He’s doing great. He’s a very rambunctious, very smart 2.5-year-old now. Meagan: Good. Flannery: Yeah. I’m so grateful that I have him now. I’m so grateful that I accidentally got pregnant with him.Meagan: Yes. He was meant to be, and he was going to make sure that he was.Flannery: He totally was. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: I’m sorry that you had that experience. I want to say it’s unique, but it’s not. That sucks. Flannery: It’s totally not. Meagan: I hope that as people are listening, if they are in the birth world of labor and delivery nurses or OBs or midwives or whatever it may be, please be mindful of mom. Please be mindful of mom. Don’t forget that she doesn’t feel these things because does. She needs to see her baby. She needs to touch her baby. She needs to kiss her baby. If it is a true emergency, true emergency, understandable. But in a sense of this, it doesn’t sound like it was a true emergency.Flannery: It wasn’t. It wasn’t. Meagan: They went over, and they took a lot of time with your baby, and then came and left. They didn’t need to just come and leave. Flannery: Right, right. Especially when baby is breathing on its own and stuff, you can take 10 seconds to let mom give baby a kiss.Meagan: It will impact mom. Flannery: It totally will. Meagan: Here you are 2 years later still feeling mad. You’re like, “I still think about that.” I saw it. I saw it in your eyes as you were telling that story. You feel that still. That’s there. I hope that people can remember that protocols and what you think needs to happen and all of these things do not trump mom. Flannery: Totally. Totally. Meagan: Right. Yeah. So, having a NICU baby, how long– what was the exact gestation?Flannery: He was 35 and 5. Meagan: Okay, so it was a preterm Cesarean as well. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Did they have to do any special scar or anything like that because it was preterm? Flannery: No, thankfully not, but he was very stuck up in my ribs. He had the cord around his neck, and there was meconium. I know that he needed to come out that way because I don’t think he could have flipped if they did an ECV. I don’t know if he would have tolerated labor if he was head down even. Meagan: Yeah. That’s definitely an early baby, but good that all is well for sure. Flannery: Yeah. He did great. It was a rocky start, but he’s doing great now. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any advice for NICU moms listening? Flannery: Yes. There is this foundation that will pay for your parking costs while you’re in the NICU. I didn’t know about it in time. Parking can get very expensive when you are visiting your baby. If you just Google, “Parking Foundation for NICU parents,” I’m sure it will come up because I can’t remember the exact name. Meagan: I’m going to look it up. I’m going to look it up while you start your next story. We’ll make sure to have it in the show notes if I can find it. Flannery: Yes. Yes. Meagan: Okay, keep going.Flannery: My next pregnancy, I was determined to do everything right this time. I was like, “You know what? The last pregnancy was so rocky and so unexpected that this time, I’m going to do everything right, and therefore nothing can go wrong.” I think people have that feeling a lot which is so irrational, but we can’t help it. I did go back to see my OB who delivered Freddy, my son. I just loved her. I thought she was wonderful. I just wanted to see what her opinion was about why I had those complications in my pregnancy and see what she thought about a VBAC because even though I wasn’t sure if I could have a VBAC, I was interested in it. She listed out all of these rules that she had about VBAC, about, “You can’t be preterm. You have to go into labor naturally,” and all of the things that you say are red flags on the podcast. Meagan: I’m like, all of the normal things, but they are all red flags. Flannery: Yes. I mean, I loved this doctor, and I think if I was going to have a repeat C-section, I would have gone back to her because she is awesome, but that wasn’t the experience that I wanted to have this time. I did a little research, and I found this midwife practice that everyone recommended to me. I decided to go with them instead. This pregnancy was super uneventful. I was very conscious of taking care of myself and taking walks a lot and prenatal yoga and being on top of my vitamins and all of that sort of thing. I was very religious about positioning and Spinning Babies because I was like, “If I can just get my baby head down from the beginning, I think that I can do the VBAC,” because with a bicornuate uterus, you have less time to flip them, so with a normally shaped uterus, baby can flip up until the very last minute if they are breech, but with a bicornuate uterus, first of all, you have more of a chance of baby being breech and less of a chance for them to flip based on the shape of your uterus. There’s just not as much room. I was trying to sit on my yoga ball and doing all of these stretches. I was thinking, “Gosh. This is so unrealistic. Who’s not going to sit on their couch for 9 months? I have to be sitting on my couch. I can’t be walking 3 miles every day,” but then I’d go back and forth in my head like, “Do you want a VBAC or not? You have to be religious about this.” You don’t have to do everything I guess is what I’m trying to say. You’ll try your best, but you have to do what’s right for you, but you can’t go to the extremes.Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. With my second baby, I was doing the red raspberry leaf. I was doing the dates. I was doing all of the things, and even with my third baby, I was the one who didn’t sit on the couch for 9 months. I still had a posterior baby. I will just say that I still had a posterior baby. I had a head-down, but still a posterior baby. Actually, he was still going breech too throughout pregnancy. Yes. He was such a stinker. But, I did do all of those things. I did the dates. I did the tea. I did all of it. For me, With my third, I had to dial back a little bit and say, “Okay. I’m going to do everything I feel is right for this pregnancy.” Dates wasn’t one of those. I actually didn’t do the dates thing. I know there is some evidence on that, but I just didn’t do it. It didn’t feel right to me, but I did other things like chiropractic care. I did drink tea. I hired a midwife and decided to go out-of-hospital and hired a birth team. I did birth education. I think the biggest thing is to do all of the things that stick out and call to you. There are so many things. We give so many tips. Some tips might not apply well to you. Walking 3 miles is a lot. Flannery: It is a lot. Meagan: It’s a lot, but if you can walk a mile, that’s better than not walking any. Flannery: Right. Meagan: Right? So trying to go and find what is sitting right for you in this pregnancy, this baby, and in this birth, and doing those things and then knowing you did all of the things you could that felt right for you. Flannery: Yes. Totally. I totally agree. Meagan: I knew I could do all of these things and baby might still be breech. Baby was breech at my anatomy scan, and then again at 28 weeks at my other growth scan. I remember going into the midwife and just saying, “What can I do?” She was kind of saying, “Nothing will supersede the shep of your uterus. You can do everything. Why don’t you just visualize because at least then you will feel like you’re doing something?” I was so mad after I left that appointment. I was like, “You can’t tell me that I can’t do anything to make this baby flip and that it’s all down to the shape of my uterus.” I kept trying. I was 28 weeks and I was going to the chiropractor and acupuncture and inversions. This time, I was really good about the inversions even though it gave me heartburn. It worked. The baby did flip. I remember actually listening to a podcast episode from The VBAC Link, and it was about someone who was trying to flip a breech baby. She flipped her breech baby. I was like, “Okay. This gives me so much hope. I can do it.” It paid off because baby did flip. I was so happy. Yeah.At one ultrasound, they did pick up an issue with the kidney. I remember being so upset because it was the same issue that my son had, but very mild. The baby had been breech at that point. I was like, “I’m trying so hard. I’m doing everything right, and it’s not working.” History is just repeating itself. That’s what it felt like to me, but we ended up finding out that the kidney resolved at the next ultrasound and the baby had flipped. It was like, “Oh, my prayers are being answered.” I couldn’t believe it. I was so happy when we got the results from that next ultrasound.We just continued doing the prep. I had planned. I was planning to deliver in the hospital. I had a doula who was amazing. She was just with me every step of the way talking me down when I was anxious and telling me all of the different things I could try and come up with plans for repeat C-section or vaginal birth. I had really wanted to go without the epidural because I didn’t mention this, but I had gotten a spinal headache from my spinal last time, and that was just awful. It was almost worse than the C-section pain. Meagan: I’ve actually heard that because nothing really takes it away full-on. Flannery: Yeah, except lying down. Meagan: Lying down, yeah.Flannery: I was trying to visit my baby in the NICU. I couldn’t just be lying in the hospital bed all day. So I was like, if I can avoid an epidural just so that I don’t even have the chance of having a spinal headache again, that’s what I’m going to do.I was reading Ina May. I was watching all of the YouTube videos and doing everything that I could, but it got to be a lot. It got to be like, oh my gosh, so much work to prep for this birth. The whole time, you don’t know if it’s a given if you’re going ot get that VBAC.Meagan: I know. Flannery: Sometimes, it can feel like, why am I doing this?Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. It is hard because we don’t know until it’s done. Flannery: Exactly. Until it’s 100% over. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Flannery: Yeah, so you know, 37 weeks came. 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I was feeling overdue basically since 35 weeks. Meagan: I’m sure. I bet you were like, “I don’t know how much longer I can go.” Flannery: I mean, I was definitely hoping to make it to term this time and I was so happy that I did. It was a big, big moment when I hit that 37-week mark, but then I just kept going and going and going. I was like, “Am I ever going to go into labor? What am I doing wrong?” I was walking. It was the end of July and it was so hot out. It was hard to get out there and walk. I eventually hit my due date which was July 25th. I got a membrane sweep on that day which was not super fun. It made me lose my mucus plug and have a few cramps, but nothing else. I was very hopeful that it would kickstart labor, but it did not. Eventually, I thought, “I just have to let go. The baby will come. You might have to have an induction, but you just have to relax.” Finally, finally, 5 days after my due date, which I know is not that long, but it felt long. Meagan: It feels long. It feels long when you are almost 6 weeks after you had your first baby.Flannery: Yes, exactly. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this period cramp feeling. I was like, “Oh my god. Is this it? Am I in labor?” I managed to calm down and go back to sleep. I put my hand on my belly and was like, “Am I going to get another cramp?” They came, and they came, and they started coming every 20 minutes. Eventually, I had to wake my husband up because it was pretty painful at that point. Maybe 2-3 hours in, I squeezed his hand. He was still sleeping, and he was like, “What’s going on?” I was like, “I think I’m in labor.” He said, “I was having a dream that your water broke.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. You guys were both willing it in.Flannery: Yes, exactly. It was like we were on the same wavelength. The contractions kept coming, but they just felt like mild period cramps. I had a midwife appointment at 8:15. They said to go in to see if I was in early labor. She checked me and said I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and almost completely effaced. She said, “Your cervix feels labory.” I said, “I think that today is the day.” I was convinced it was prodromal labor or going to fizzle out or something. We went all the way back home. My plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and have my doula come over. I said goodbye to my little 2-year-old. My mom was taking him to hang out with her while we were in the hospital, and I remember she had him say to me, “Good luck, and be strong.”The sound of his little voice saying that to me literally just sustained me through the entire labor. It was replaying in my head in the hardest moments. I could just hear him saying that and it meant so much to me. Yeah. We just hung out at home. I was getting pretty irregular timed contractions. I was wondering why they weren’t getting closer together because sometime they would be close together. Sometimes they would be spaced apart, but they were definitely getting stronger. I got in the bath or the shower. I was leaning over, and swaying and moaning, doing all of the things that you’re supposed to do– the low-toned moaning and the breathing. I eventually had my doula come over after one really bad contraction. I was like, “What’s going on? Why isn’t it picking up? Why aren’t they getting closer together? Should I go to the hospital? What’s going on?” I was really afraid of the car ride because it was about 40 minutes in the car. She said, “I think what is happening is that you have this mental block about the car ride,” because this whole time, I was like, “What if I have the baby in the car? What if I have the baby in the car?” I heard a lot of stories about car babies, and I actually recently had a patient who had a car baby at work. She was like, “I think you have this mental block, and once you get to the hospital, your body is going to let you get fully into labor. So I do think you could go.” I was like, “Okay, okay. Let’s go.” I called the midwives and let them know we were coming. My favorite, favorite midwife was on, the one I had hoped this whole time was going to deliver my baby.She was only on for a 12-hour shift, and it was already halfway through her shift. I was like, “Oh gosh. I’m glad she’s going to be there.” We drove to the hospital. It was this very hot, very bright, and humid day. I was like, “I don’t want to be here. I just want to be in a cold, dark room.”I remember as we turned onto the street that the hospital is in and pulled in the driveway, my contractions boom, boom, boom were ramping up. I was like, “Ashley (my doula), you are so right. This is exactly what happened.” I got into triage. I was making a lot of noise. It was very intense at that point. They checked me. I was 4 centimeters and 100% effaced. I wasn’t too disappointed that I wasn’t further along because I was like, “This feels pretty intense. I think things are really happening.” But they said, “You picked a very popular day to give birth. There are no rooms available on labor and delivery.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: What?Flannery: I was especially nervous because working in the field, I’ve seen how a busy unit can really affect the care that is given. It shouldn’t be that way, but it totally is. Meagan: It’s the reality sometimes. Flannery: Yep. My sister-in-law had recently given birth on a very busy day. She had a very difficult birth, and a very not attentive staff, so that was one of the things I was really afraid of is that I was going to give birth on a super busy day, but my care was excellent thankfully. We eventually waited in triage for a room to be ready, and it was a tub room that became available. There was one tub room in labor and delivery. I was so excited to get in that tub. I jumped right in as soon as we got there. Not jumped, waddled right in. It felt so good. The water felt amazing, but I did find it very hard to maneuver and get in the right position to work through a contraction in the tub because it was weirdly shaped. I didn’t stay in there super long, but I was very surprised at how intense the contractions were which sounds silly, but they just really took over. I was hoping to use some coping techniques like music or my rebozo. I brought my massage gun. I brought this whole toolkit of stuff, but in the moment, all that was going through my head during a contraction was cursing and, “I need the epidural. I need the epidural.”I was squeezing my husband’s hand so hard. My doula had this spiky, silver ball that you could use for counterpressure so I was squeezing that in my hand so hard breathing. I labored on the toilet for bit. I was in the bed. I was moving around. I could not be lying down. They were having to use continuous monitoring which I didn’t really mind. The nurse was very good about not being intrusive about that. She would just follow me around with the monitor. The midwife, who I was hoping to have, was just there with me the whole time. She was holding the monitor onto my belly and speaking kind words to me. I remember going through this terrible contraction and looking over at her. She is just sitting serenely in her rocking chair just looking at me. In my head, I was like, “How can you be so calm? Help me. Do something.” Meagan: I can relate. Flannery: Being present. Meagan: Do something. Help me.Flannery: Help me. Help me. Meagan: Sometimes just being present is what you needed. Flannery: It is. It totally was. She was super hands-off, but in the moment, you’re like, “Come on. Somebody do something to help me.” Eventually, I was just sitting on the toilet. The midwife had dimmed the lights. My husband was there speaking to me. I had been making these very loud moans through each contraction, and then during one of them, I started grunting, and I knew exactly what that meant. I was pushing involuntarily. I had been hoping to feel the fetal ejection reflex, and I think that’s what this was because my body completely took over. There was no way that I could have not pushed during these contractions. The pain of the contraction was so intense, but it would go away when I pushed. Then I would just feel this really uncomfortable pressure, but at least the pain of the contraction was going away. I had been pushing for maybe 5 minutes, and my midwife was all excited. I was like, “Okay. Please, can you check me?” She was like, “No, just go with your intuition. Listen to your body.” I was like, “No. I need you to check me.” I did not want to be pushing on an incomplete cervix. She did, and I was a 9 and 100% effaced. She was like, “Okay, you can definitely push. That cervix is just going to melt away.” Yes. I tried the nitrous while I was pushing, but I really hated how it restricted my breathing. It also made me throw up everywhere. Meagan: Really? Flannery: Yes. Meagan: Interesting. Flannery: Yes. So much puke. It was so embarrassing. It was splashing on everyone’s shoes. I was like, “Oh my god. I’m so sorry.” I pushed on the toilet for a little bit, and then I moved over to the bed. I went over to the bed because when I was on the toilet, I felt something coming out between my legs. I reached down, and it was the bubble of amniotic fluid. It hadn’t popped yet. Meagan: Your bag of waters, yeah. Flannery: My bag of waters was coming out. I think I said to my husband, “Do you want to touch it?” He was like, “No.” Meagan: It just feels like a water balloon.Flannery: It felt exactly like a water balloon. I went over to the bed. I got on my side, and I was pushing so hard just totally going with my intuition, but it wasn’t the type of peaceful breathing that people tell you to do like the J breathing or anything. There was no way I could breathe through these contractions and these pushes. I was totally holding my breath and bearing down, but that’s just what was right for me in the moment. They were saying, “Can you feel the baby moving down?” I was like, “No. Not at all.” I think that’s because the bag of waters was still intact. I couldn’t feel anything except this really uncomfortable pressure. They said, “Put your fingers inside of yourself and see if you can feel a baby’s head.” I put my fingers past the bag of waters, and I could feel the baby’s head right there. I pushed, and I could feel the baby move down. It was the most incredible, coolest moment of the birth. I loved that. My midwife said, “Okay, baby’s definitely feeling the squeeze.” Her heart rate was going down a little bit. She said, “Turn onto your left side, and with this next contraction, let’s have the baby.” I pushed as hard as I possibly could, and just felt this release of pressure. I had no idea what was going on, but I had this cold cloth over my face so I couldn’t see anybody, but I heard cheering. Then I felt this warm, wet baby come up onto my belly. I was laughing and crying, and everyone was saying, “Yay! You did it!” I was just like, “Oh my god, what happened?” Meagan: Just like that.Flannery: It was surreal. It was incredible. She started crying right away. We didn’t know she was a girl. My husband looked down between her legs. We both looked at the same time and said, “It’s a girl.” I said, “I knew you were a girl.” She just stayed with me the whole time right onto my chest. It was just the best feeling. I was so, so overjoyed. Meagan: That is so amazing. It’s so amazing with VBAC how the whole room sometimes can just erupt with joy and, “You did it!” and screams and joyful laughs. Oh, man. Flannery: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was so, so intense in a way that I hadn’t been expecting it to be. It was a calm, beautiful birth, but the intensity of the contractions and the way that my body completely took over, and I was just along for the ride. I was just riding the waves. It was crazy. Meagan: Truly riding that wave. We talk about it in HypnoBirthing and riding the wave, but that wave came over, and like you said, your body was just like, “Okay, I’ve got this. Let’s go.” Here you went, and this baby came out pretty quickly it sounds like.Flannery: Yeah, she was born at 7:23 PM. I had felt my first contraction at 2:00 AM or something. It wasn’t the shortest labor, but once I got to the hospital, it was 5 or 6 hours. It was pretty quick in the end there. She came out en caul. Her head did. Meagan: She did?Flannery: As her body came out, it popped, so she was almost en caul I guess which I thought was so cool. Meagan: Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. I love that. I’ve seen a couple in my doula career, and it is so cool-looking. A lot of people have said, “Oh, vaginal birth can’t have encaul babies.” Oh, yes they can. Yes, they can. 100%. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: I love that you had mentioned, “Once I got to the hospital–”. Sometimes I’ve had this with doula clients where I’m noticing this pattern of inconsistency and a lot of the times, the client is saying things like, “Should I go? Should I go? Is it okay to be here still? How much longer should we stay?” They are saying these questions because inside, there’s a lot going on. I had a client where I said, “You know what? I think we should go. I think you are going to feel safer there. It seems like you are going to feel safer there.” The second we got there, things ramped up. Doctor didn’t even make it. The baby slipped out on the bed. Seriously, the second she got there, her body released. It was almost like her epidural. Sometimes, with an epidural, we get an epidural and our body is able to relax. If our mind is not confident or comfortable, we can’t let our bodies sometimes. So I love that you pointed that out. I wanted to talk a little bit more really quickly on the types of uterine abnormalities or different types of uteruses. As she was saying, you have a bicornuate uterus which means it’s a heart-shaped uterus. I’m probably going to butcher these names especially if you are a provider and you are listening. I don’t really know how to say these words. There’s an arcuate uterus which is similar to a bicornuate uterus, but with less of a dip in the heart shape. It’s like an oddly shaped heart. It’s asymmetrical in my mind. That’s how I envision it. There’s an arcuate uterus, which means there’s a divide down the two parts of the membrane wall. Then there’s a unicornuate uterus, which is when the fallopian tube has an irregular shape to it. Then I always butcher this one. It’s didelphys. I don’t even know how to say it. Flannery: Sorry. I can’t help you on that one. Meagan: I’m going to stop trying. That is when you are born with two uteruses which does happen. One baby can be in one uterus, and we can have another uterus over here. Those are all abnormalities of the uteruses. Of course, we have different shapes, sizes, and all of the things. I wanted to just have a link in the show notes for that as well so you can read more on each of those types of uteruses. Then tell me if this is the right link. I found Jackson’s Chance Foundation.Flannery: Yes. That’s what it is. Meagan: Why parking matters. Flannery: Yes. Meagan: It looks like this is inspired. It’s a foundation inspired by another person’s story, another NICU baby’s story. It said that–Flannery: Yeah. I believe that Jackson’s parents set it up. Meagan: Yeah. Wow. This story is precious and inspiring. Wow. These parents are incredible. Then it does show that you can donate or sponsor a parking pass. They talk about the why and all of that. This is so awesome. I’m going to make sure that we have that in the show notes. If you know a NICU baby, or you know someone who is going to have a NICU baby, don’t be like Flannery and find out later. This is how we all learn, and this is how. We find out when it’s too late, then we have to go to show on. So, thank you for sharing that tip. I’ve actually never heard of it, but that’s probably because I’m not a NICU mom.Flannery: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it helps someone. Meagan: Yes. Thank you again so much for sharing your story.Flannery: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”Kerri is a labor and delivery nurse born and raised in Kentucky. The only thing on her first birth plan was not to have a C-section, yet it became her reality. We know many of you can relate.She had a medically necessary induction at 36 weeks due to preeclampsia. Kerri describes her experience with getting magnesium, aka a “flu in a bag”, seeing double and going in for a C-section. Her surgery was straightforward, but Kerri felt very out of it and disconnected. Kerri was very intentional about her plans for a VBAC. Her birth team was on board and supported her requests. Throughout her pregnancy, Kerri’s greatest desire was to feel present for the moment of birth no matter the outcome. When labor stalled and baby had a hard time engaging, Kerri felt peaceful about requesting a second C-section. With things happening on her terms, Kerri’s birth was the peaceful and healing experience she hoped it would be.Evidence Based BirthⓇ - The Evidence on VBACEvidence Based BirthⓇ - COVID ResourcesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a CBAC story coming your way today. If you did not know what CBAC means, that is Cesarean Birth After Cesarean. This is a topic that a lot of people avoid. I don’t know, tell me, Kerri, who is sharing her story today. Do you feel like CBAC stories are sometimes avoided when you are preparing for a VBAC?Kerri: I think so. I know I avoided that as I prepared for my own attempted VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. Kerri: Yeah. I think that CBAC is something that we try to avoid because we all hope for that VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. We overlook it and it actually breaks my heart. I encourage everyone to listen, especially if they are wanting to VBAC, every VBAC story, but as well as every CBAC story for a lot of reasons. One, understanding maybe what led to another CBAC and two, the healing and the fact that it can be a peaceful experience. It’s not the end. There are so many things to CBAC, I think, that are missed. It’s the same thing with uterine rupture stories or things like that. I’m not wanting that, so I don’t want to listen to that. Now, I don’t want to shame anyone if they skip over a CBAC story, but I really encourage everybody to listen to all of these stories because they are empowering. They are uplifting, and they are going to help you grow in ways that you may not even know. Before we get into cute Kerri’s episode, I wanted to share a review. This was actually left a little bit ago too, actually. It was in 2022. No, 2021. It says, “Going for my VBAC after two C-section in 2022”. It says, “Thank you so much for this valuable resource. I have been listening to your podcast since early in my second pregnancy. I found out I was expecting again 9 months after my CBAC, and I was immediately and depressed that I would be going through all of that all over again very soon. I am now 14 weeks, and I’m drawing strength every day from the stories you share. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have hope this time that it will be different.” Now, that’s another good note to have. Even if you do have a CBAC, that doesn’t mean that’s the end. That also may mean you find healing in that, and you want future CBACs, right? You want to schedule that CBAC. I love that note about healing and strength. That’s what all of these episodes are doing. Okay, Kerri. I am so happy that you are here. You are in Kentucky.Kerri: Yes. Meagan: Okay, were you in Kentucky for both of your births? Are you from Kentucky?Kerri: I have lived in the same small town my whole life. I live just outside of Lexington. It’s a little bit bigger than it used to be, but it’s still a small town to me. Meagan: Okay. Kerri: I have lived in Lexington my whole life. I gave birth at the same hospital where I was born. Meagan: Yeah, me too. I would say I’m boring. I’m boring. I haven’t been anywhere, but I don’t think it’s boring, actually. I love Utah. I’ve been born and raised here. I actually gave birth at the same hospital for my C-sections and with the same provider who gave birth to me. Kerri: Oh, that’s so funny. That’s wild. Meagan: Kind of crazy, huh. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your beautiful stories. I’d love to turn the time over to you. Kerri: Yeah. I’m so excited to share. I’ve listened to this podcast quite a bit since my first C-section, so I’m really excited to be on today.Meagan: Well, thank you for being here. Kerri: My first pregnancy was already a surprise pregnancy. Me and my husband had just gotten married, and a month and a half later found out we were pregnant. It was already quite a bit of a surprise being pregnant. You know, pregnancy went well. The first trimester went well. Around 28 weeks, I had gotten COVID. This was November of ‘21. COVID was still fresh. I had gotten COVID, and I made it through that. I thought everything was going well, but from that point on, I just was feeling more and more sick. I had been a nurse for a while, but I was a new nurse to labor and delivery. I was working night shifts, so I just really attributed the way I felt to working nights. I’m just pregnant. I’m working the night shifts. This is probably what’s wrong with me. Around 35 weeks, I just started feeling miserable. I had an appointment with a provider who wasn’t my provider, but he was a provider I had worked with. At that appointment, my blood pressure was elevated. He said, “Let’s just get a preeclampsia panel, and do a 24-hour urine just to be safe and see what’s going on.”I did that, and I turned in my 24-hour urine. I went to work that night. That shift was miserable. I don’t know how I made it through that shift, but I did. I got off that morning, and the provider called me that morning. He was like, “You have preeclampsia. You cannot work anymore. You’re on light duty at home, and you’re being induced at 37 weeks.” That was already quite a bit of a shock. I had been around birth just enough as a labor and delivery nurse. I had just already in my head pictured this beautiful birth experience that you see on Instagram, and I’m like, “This is already not happening for me.” He tells me that. I’m home for a few days, and I’m just feeling more miserable as I’m home. After that phone call a few days later, I checked my blood pressure, and it’s severe at home. It’s over 160/110. Being the nurse I am, they say nurses make the worst patients. I was just like, “I’m going to ignore this for a little bit, and we’ll just see if this gets any better.” I check it again later that afternoon, and it’s still super high. I called my husband, and we decided to go to the hospital. We get there, and my blood pressure was high, but it was not severe enough to do anything about it. They were like, “Let’s just keep you overnight and see what you do.” Over the 24-hour period of being there for observation, my blood pressures just went up and up. I had some more severe, and they were like, “You know, it’s time to have a baby.” I was just shy of 36 weeks at this point. They started a magnesium infusion to help with the preeclampsia.Meagan: Blood pressure. Ugh, did it make you feel yucky?Kerri: Oh, yes. Magnesium is awful. I feel for anybody who has to be on that. It was awful. We call it flu in a bag, and it truly is that. Meagan: Flu in a bag. Okay. I’ve never heard of that, but I can understand that based off of the way I’ve seen my clients feel. Kerri: Yeah, that’s exactly how you feel. Flu in a bag. It just makes you feel yucky. We started that, and we started the induction process. We started with the Foley bulb. We put that in. That was in until the next morning, and it comes out. When it came out, I think I was 3 centimeters, but not very effaced. It was just an artificial 3, a Foley bulb 3. They were like, “You know, your cervix isn’t very favorable. Let’s do some Cytotec.”We did a few doses of Cytotec. They rechecked me after that. It was still not very favorable. I think this was the evening at that point. They were like, “Let’s just take a break, let you have a meal, and we’ll try this again.” We do that, and then we start Pitocin. We did that all night. The next morning, my provider checks me. I’m finally a 4. I was ecstatic. I was like, “Oh, I’ve made some change.” I was really excited. They checked me. I was 4. They break my water, and they’re like, “Let’s just see what happens.” I had gotten an epidural at that point because I was already pretty miserable from being on magnesium and all of these induction agents. I was like, “I really need some rest.” I was already epiduralized. The nurse who was taking care of me at the time was a really good friend of mine. She was like, “Let’s do everything that we can to try to have this baby vaginally.” She did Spinning Babies. We did all of the positions that we could. They checked me again later and I was a 5. I was ecstatic, like, okay. We’re doing something there. A few hours later, I’m starting to feel pretty miserable, more miserable than I had felt before. I look over at the computer, and I’m seeing double. I call out to my friend. I’m like, “I don’t know if this is normal, but I’m seeing two of everything.” She was like, “No, it’s not.” She calls my provider. He said, “Let’s draw a magnesium level. Let’s see what’s going on.” So they did. My magnesium level was high. They decided, “Let’s just recheck you. We’ll see you if you made change. If not, we’ll have to have a section.”They checked me. I was still a 5 at that point. They decided with everything that was going on, it was probably in the best interest of the situation to have a section. I agreed, but I was heartbroken. My whole pregnancy, my only birth plan was don’t have a C-section, and at that moment, that was my reality. Everybody who was with me that day, they were my coworkers. They witnessed me have a full-blown panic attack over it, but everybody made it through that with me. They loved on me, then we finally went back to the C-section. I’m pretty out of it from the magnesium at this point and just having labored so long. They started the section. I felt like I could feel more than what I probably should have been able to feel. I let them know, and once they got the baby out, they gave me ketamine just to help with my pain. I was knocked out for 12 hours, so I don’t remember my baby’s birth at all. Meagan: That’s hard. Kerri: Yeah. It was really hard. I feel like the moment I actually realized I had a baby was the next morning. There’s a video where I’m like, “Oh my goodness.”Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Were you feeling any better by then?Kerri: I was still under magnesium, but I was feeling better. Meagan: Good. Kerri: The protocol, at least at the hospital that I work at in, is magnesium 24 hours postpartum just to make sure you still don’t– Meagan: Yes, that is how it is here too, then they’ll recheck things and if blood pressures are still elevated or anything like that, and if levels are elevated, then they’ll remain, and if not, then they’ll take you off. Kerri: Yeah, we did that for 24 hours. Once that was off, I finally got to go up to the mother/baby unit. I started to feel more normal at that point, but just that whole experience, I felt like I was just not even a part of. I was just there having the baby, but I didn’t feel like I was actually there having a baby. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Did that carry onto the postpartum and future as stuff to process for you, or did it feel okay? Kerri: That was very hard for me because I worked with birth every day. I got to see these beautiful moments of people having their baby, and I didn’t feel like I had gotten that. I don’t remember my baby being born. You know, it’s different. I had pictures, but nothing quite as good as remembering that. That was very hard, and it really affected me for a long time. You know, it still does. I would have loved to have been present in that moment. That just wasn’t the reality for me. Meagan: Yeah. Have you done things to work through that, or anything to suggest for someone who maybe have experienced that or have been put under anesthesia where they just couldn’t remember or be present in their birth?Kerri: For me, my faith is something that is very important to me. Praying and talking with God about it has really been helpful for me. It was still a beautiful moment. I’ve come to terms with that. Meagan: Good. Good. Okay, so baby number two. Oh, I was going to ask you, with being preterm, did they do a special scar or anything, or were they able to do a regular low transverse?Kerri: Just a regular low transverse incision. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome.Kerri: Yeah. So baby number two, we knew we wanted another one, and honestly, as soon as we were in that hospital room, I remember I told my husband that I never wanted to have a C-section again. When we started thinking about number two, we were going to start working towards having a VBAC. When she was around 20 months, I found out I was pregnant. Prior to the pregnancy, I had done a ton of research on what is the best way to get a VBAC, and what is the best way to prevent preeclampsia which is silly because we know preeclampsia can’t necessarily be prevented. Meagan: Yeah, there are things we can do to try to reduce the chances, but there’s nothing that we know for sure, concrete that this is what you can do to make sure you don’t get it. Kerri: Yeah. My provider did have me start taking low-dose aspirin early on in the pregnancy, and I didn’t get it again, but you know, I did all of this research like, what can I do? Looking back now, I think I put too much pressure on myself to try and prevent it. I found out I was pregnant when she was 20 months old, and we were so excited. We were just thrilled. We just couldn’t even describe that. I was so excited to start doing what I could in the pregnancy to get my VBAC. That’s all I could think about was my VBAC. I remember praying to God. I just prayed that this pregnancy I could have my successful VBAC. Then as the pregnancy got closer to delivery, in my head, I’m like, “I could have another C-section. I need to start thinking about this.” So then I shifted my mindset. I was like, “You know, if I have to have another C-section, it’s okay. All we want is a peaceful delivery.” So that’s what I kept telling myself every day in my prayers. I was like, “Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”Meagan: Yeah, I bet that was a really big deal for you.Kerri: Yes. I just kept saying that every day. That’s what we’re going to do. Peaceful delivery. Present delivery. I kept telling my coworkers because they were rooting for me. We were going to make this a better experience. My provider the whole pregnancy was great. She was very VBAC-supportive. I did a lot of research prior to the pregnancy about who I wanted to see, and I worked with these providers. It was a hard choice to make. I work with great providers, but I feel very confident in the provider I picked. She took such great care of me, and I’ll forever be grateful for her. Towards the end of the pregnancy, me and her had a chat about what are we going to do to get our best attempt at having a VBAC? I ultimately decided that I wanted to be an induced VBAC. Not necessarily that I wanted to be induced, but I needed the peace of mind. I already had a lot of anxiety just because of the last pregnancy, and I just needed an experience where I could at least expect something. This may not end in a successful VBAC, but I really want to try. We scheduled the induced VBAC, and she was like, “This might not work.” We had a lot of conversations about that. She was like, “Induced VBACs aren’t always successful,” which I appreciated her saying as a provider. I was like, “This is what I need just for my peace of mind.” We scheduled an induction. Everything was going great. I went in at night. I had gotten a Foley bulb again. My cervix wasn’t favorable necessarily. I was 39 weeks on the dot. Maybe if I would have waited a little longer, I would have been more favorable. At that point, I wasn’t the most favorable, but I still wanted to go through with it. I had wrapped my head around that that day was going to be her birthday and we were going to go through with it. We started with the Foley bulb, and it stayed in for what felt like forever. They put it in at midnight. It did not come out until 11:00 AM the next day. I was not expecting that because last time, the Foley bulb did not stay in that long. This time, I had made it to 39 weeks, and I was thinking that my cervix would do more, and it just didn’t. My provider came in. She was able to get it out. She broke my water, and I was at a 4 at that point. It was ready to come out, but it didn’t on its own. I wasn’t expecting that. I was expecting a little bit more. Meagan: That can happen. It can be in for up to 12 hours and not fall out. That can happen, but I’m sure after your previous experience, you’re like, “Wait. Why isn’t this out yet?” Kerri: Yeah. We did that, and I decided she was going to break my water. Me and her and my nurse who was taking care of me was a really good friend. We were like, “Let’s just get an epidural because we know that there is a bit of a higher chance for uterine rupture for being an induced VBAC or TOLAC.” Meagan: Were you feeling contractions at this point?Kerri: I was. I was feeling contractions. That was something, I kept telling my husband, that I was really excited about. With the last experience, I was really out of it having been on magnesium and having gotten an epidural so early. I just didn’t even feel like I got to experience labor at all. Like I said, I didn’t feel like I was a part of that experience. I was really excited this time to be able to experience contractions. While they were very, very painful, I was very grateful to have that experience. I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl. Meagan: Fentanyl?Kerri: Fentanyl, yeah. We used to do [inaudible], but right now, we have fentanyl. I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl, but I really tried to tough it out because I was like, “I really want this experience.” The whole pregnancy, I had been prepping for how I was going to manage labor while I didn’t have an epidural. I had a friend who I worked with. She is also a doula, and she is going to school to be a midwife. She had talked me through a few different things that I could do. I had really prepared, and I was really excited to be able to experience some contractions. Meagan: Yeah. Kerri: But we had decided, “Let’s get an epidural just to be safe.” We got an epidural, and everything was smooth sailing. We got the epidural. We started some Pitocin. I had asked for peace of mind for me, an IUPC which is the intrauterine contraction monitor because I wanted to know what my uterus was doing. If I was going to be an induced VBAC and I’m going to have a higher risk of rupture, I wanted to know exactly what my uterus was doing, so I asked for one of those to be put in. They put one in. My contractions were adequate. We were moving along. I’m just ecstatic at this point because I’m like, “I have never had adequate contractions. Last time, I made progress, but nothing like this.” I was very, very excited. Throughout the course of the day, me and my friend who was taking care of me decided that we were going to do every Spinning Babies position that we could do. My epidural was just perfect enough. I was able to help move by myself and do all of these positions that I had planned on doing. It was great. I was so excited. They checked me, and I was a 5. I was excited that I had made it a little bit farther than what I had thought I would because last time, I had stayed at a 5 forever. I was at a 5, and I was expecting to just keep making progress. A few hours later, they checked me again, and I was still a 5. My provider is like, “Your pelvis feels very tight, and your baby’s head is not applied at all.” So then, I felt crushed in that moment. I had been planning on having this successful VBAC, and it doesn’t feel like it’s going to happen. Prior to the induction, I had been living in the Miles Circuit and doing everything I could to get her the best engaged she could be. She wasn’t doing it. She said, “We’ll give it a few more hours.” Meagan: What were your MVUs at this point? Sorry, I just interrupted you. Kerri: I think they were 200. They were adequate. Meagan: Mhmm, cool. Kerri: My contractions had been adequate for a while, and I wasn’t on very much Pit. Meagan: Good. Kerri: I was thinking that things were going great. She was like, “We can keep going if you want. I’m going to stay with you. I’m going to do your delivery regardless of the outcome.” We decided we were going to keep going. A few hours later, I get checked again. I’m still 5. Her head’s still not applied. My friend who was taking care of me was about to leave because her shift was over. She was like, “We can call it right now, or we can give it another shot.” She said, “You’ll never get this experience again, so if you want to keep going, keep going, but if you don’t, it’s fine.”Kerri: I decided, “I want to keep trying.” I kept trying. Then a few hours later, I was checked again. I was still a 5. Her head was still not engaged, so we decided that we were going to have another C-section. That was heartbreaking. I remember in the moment feeling a little heartbroken, but also feeling at peace about it all in one. Meagan: Yeah, which is important. Kerri: Yeah. We go back for the section. I was nervous about having another section just because my first one was so traumatizing. I wasn’t sure how it was going to go. I was really nervous about anesthesia. Is it going to hurt this time? Am I going to be knocked out because I’m feeling too much? The anesthesiologist who took care of me decided, “Let’s just give you a spinal.” My epidural had fallen out actually, so she said, “Let’s do a spina. Let’s make sure you are the most comfortable you can be.” They did that. They started the section. I couldn’t feel anything which I’m already thrilled for. I remember just laying there, and I felt so present during the whole thing. My baby came out, and I remember being a part of that moment. There was a clear drape, so I was able to see what was going on. My provider– I feel like we had developed such a good bond. She did everything to make sure that it was a good experience for me and to make sure I was present. Something that was important to me was that my baby would be with me a little bit longer while I was in the OR. I didn’t have my baby with me last time, so I really wanted that. I didn’t necessarily do skin-to-skin, but I got to hold her. She got to be with me the whole time, and it was perfect. She got to be with me during recovery. That whole birthing experience was just the most beautiful thing.Meagan: Good. So you have been able to walk away feeling positive about a birth experience. Kerri: Yes. That’s not something I thought I would get with a C-section. After my first, I had a lot of postpartum anxiety. I had very negative feelings towards C-sections. I didn’t enjoy seeing my scar. To me, that was just a reminder of what my body had done to me. I felt betrayed by my body, and for the longest time, I just was ashamed of the fact that I had a C-section. After that experience with my second, I was very proud that I did have a C-section because reality hit me that this isn’t the most ideal way to give birth to a baby, but it happens, and thank God they are available, and I have two beautiful babies because of my C-sections, so I’m very, very thankful for them now. Meagan: Yes, good. Good. Kerri: When my husband and I decide to have another one, I’m like, “This will be great because I think that for me, I’ll just have another repeat section, and it will be scheduled. It’s going to be great, and I’m excited about it.” But it’s just something to be able to look back and be able to think of this as such a positive experience as opposed to my first. I wasn’t proud of my birth story at all. It was something I carried with me for a long time, and now, I’m thankful that I can have a different perspective about it. Even about my first, my first birth was beautiful in its own way.Meagan: Yeah. It’s hard because you don’t want to only think about those births as negative or traumatic. You want to pick out the positivity from it, but sometimes it is hard to see all of that, so it’s been so great to hear that you– one, it sounds like with your labor, it really was a lot of your choice along the way. You decided this was something you wanted. Your team went with you and then walked with you along the way. In the end, it was able to be something that was a lot more healing. Even though it was still a Cesarean, it was a healing experience for you. You got to have your baby that whole time, and you got to grow through that experience. Like you said, you may choose to have a third C-section, and that’s okay. I think that’s one of the things I love about this podcast is that it’s not if you choose a C-section, you are shamed. That’s just not how it is. Everyone needs to choose what is best for them and their individual circumstances. I love that you’ve been able to go from the furthest end of the extreme to coming back, and then possibly if you have another baby, it sounds like something that you are already looking forward to having an even different experience. I love that you’ve been able to have that and you can share these stories and you can hold onto these good feelings because it really is important. Kerri: Yes. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I feel more positive about taking care of women who have C-sections because for the longest time, every time I went into the OR, it brought up feelings from my own first C-section. It was hard to be the best nurse that I could be when I was dealing with my own feelings, so I’m thankful now that I have this perspective of, “This is beautiful in its own way.” Every birth is beautiful. You’re bringing your baby into the world. Who cares how it happens? I think we get so wrapped up in God made our bodies to give birth a certain way, and that’s just not the reality for some people. I’m thankful we live in a society where C-sections are readily available and we can have them. They can be just as beautiful.Meagan: Yeah. CBACs really can be. My second C-section was very, very healing. I think it was exactly what I needed to have healing from my first birth that I didn’t realize I didn’t heal from. I was really, really grateful that I had the experience. Again, it wasn’t the birth I desired, but it was such a better and healing experience for me. I was really, really grateful for those. Okay, I have two things that I want to talk about. One is preeclampsia. Not even just preeclampsia, but COVID. I was just wondering, as a labor and delivery nurse, have you seen things like preeclampsia or placental issues or anything like that from people who have had COVID during pregnancy? Rebecca Dekker has such an incredible blog, and I’m going to make sure to link it here. I have seen this weird connection with pre-e with a placenta or placental issues that have had COVID. I was just curious if you’ve seen anything like that. Kerri: You know, I feel like that is something that we’ve seen more of. I will say I started working as a labor and delivery nurse in 2021, so I can’t speak for what nurses saw prior to this, but I do feel like I see a great deal of preeclampsia, especially during that COVID time. Women were having more complications. More women are getting more sick. I don’t know if there’s a correlation, but I will say that as far as pregnancy goes, it does seem like a lot of pregnancies are becoming more high-risk.Meagan: Because of that? Because of COVID?Kerri: I don’t know if it’s necessarily COVID or just the way we eat, the way we take care of ourselves, but I feel like during COVID, there were a higher number of combinations whether there’s a correlation or not. Meagan: Yeah, that’s interesting. I just barely read the most recent update. I need to dive into that more, but I was wondering as a labor and delivery nurse if you had seen that. You mentioned with your first that they had tested you, and your magnesium levels were too high. Are there things that can reduce magnesium levels? Obviously, maybe lowering the magnesium levels that are given, but are there things that can be done in that situation to lower their magnesium levels?Kerri: If your magnesium level is high, we can give you the reversal drug which is calcium gluconate. We can give you that, but we are already inducing, you and it’s high, and you’re not making very much progress, at that point–Meagan: The provider may not be wanting to do that. Kerri: Yeah, delivery is the best option.Meagan: Yeah, for preeclampsia, which we do know. I was just wondering if there was such a thing that could help. Kerri: Yeah. Ideally, just do what you can to deliver. But you know, that’s something that people should talk to their provider about in that moment. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. I agree. Then last but not least, I just wanted to share a little bit more because I think a lot of people do question induction and VBAC. What are the risks? Sometimes, the risks seem astronomical, and sometimes they are not to some people. Everyone takes it differently. I wanted to share some evidence on that. With the risk of induction, it does increase just like you had mentioned. It does increase the risk of uterine rupture when we are induced. It’s about a 1.1% if you have Pitocin and about a 2% if you have prostaglandins, and then of course, we know misoprostol. How do you say that?Kerri: Misoprostol, but however you want. Meagan: Yeah. I saw misoprostol, but I’ve heard people say MYsoprostol. It is about 6%. It definitely increases with certain things that you do. It’s about a 1.1%. Uterine rupture in general is just around 1%. It increases it ever so slightly, but it’s really important to take the right precautions. A Foley bulb is a fantastic way to start jumpstarting labor, but sometimes it does need to have a little bit of an opening, at least 1 centimeter. Kerri: Where I work, we don’t do Cytotec for TOLACs. Meagan: Most people shouldn’t.. Kerri: It’s a 1 to 1 assignment. Your nurse who is taking care of you wouldn’t have another patient. Meagan: Interesting. Kerri: They make sure that all hands are on you and make sure that your uterus is okay. When it came down to me when I was thinking about wanting to TOLAC and hopefully have a VBAC, I looked at the risk. I think it’s important. I listened to a podcast. I think it was by Jordan Lee Doulie. She had an OB on her podcast talking about VBAC. He said, “It’s important to remember that there is a risk whether you’re having a repeat section or you’re having a TOLAC.”I really took that to heart. For me, the risk of uterine rupture is small enough that I want to try. I know that I’m going to be in a hospital. I know I’m going to be monitored, and if that’s something that’s happening, I know I’ll be taken care of quickly. I was okay taking the risk. I think that has to be such an individual choice. It does carry risk as well, so that’s why I needed to at least give it a shot. I’m somebody that I fully support whoever wants to have a VBAC after two sections, but for me, that’s not something I want to do. But as with everything, you have to look at both sides of it and make your decision. Meagan: Yeah. I think that’s what we talk about on this podcast. Learn the risks. Learn the facts. Learn what the evidence says, and then follow your heart. What feels right? I appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing your journey. I do love how much you were able to be a part of your birth that second, and then also your postpartum experience is so important. Kerri: Oh yeah. I’m 11 weeks postpartum now, and I just have to say that my mental health this time is so much better, and my recovery post-C-section was so much better. I really have such positive things to say. It was such a good experience. I’m forever grateful for everybody who took care of me. I’m forever grateful for my provider. I just love her dearly and am just so thankful for her. Meagan: Good. I’m so grateful for you. I’m so glad you had that support and that loving team. Thank you again for sharing.Kerri: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

One of our team members, Paige, joins us today to share our first maternal assisted Cesarean story on the podcast! Our favorite Julie joins too sharing her perspective as Paige’s birth photographer. Paige tried three times to have the vaginal birth of her dreams. Each time ended in emergency Cesareans due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Each time, she missed the golden hour that she so desperately craved. Each time, she learned more and more about birth.With her fourth baby, she exchanged her VBAC dream for a new one. After hearing about maternal assisted Cesareans, she decided to do all she could to pursue one fully knowing it may not happen. But when it did, it was everything she hoped it would be and more. Paige's Full Birth VideoHoum ClinicDayana Harrison Birth ServicesJulie Francom Birth PhotographyYouTube Video: Maternal Assisted Caesarean Section - The Birth of Betty MaeThe VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220: Dr. Natalie Elphinstone & MACsThe Birth Hour Episode 875: Nicole's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in MichiganBaby Baking & Kid Raising Podcast Episode 6: MACs with Lauren BrentonAustralian Birth Stories Podcast: All Maternal Assisted Cesarean EpisodesYouTube Video: Nottingham University Hospitals Maternity Gentle C-sectionCBAC Support Facebook Community How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Oh my gosh, you guys. Today is a very special day. It’s a very, very special day. We have our own team member, Paige. If you guys haven’t already seen the video floating around, go to Instagram today and watch what we’ve got posted. We have Paige, and we have Julie, and they are actually in Korea. Now, Paige lives in Korea. Julie flew to Korea to be the photographer for Paige. I was over here in Utah having FOMO as they were Marco Poloing me when she was in labor. You guys, I am so excited. I can’t explain to you the love that I have for Paige. She has been on our team for so many years. I’m getting emotional. I have seen this woman transform into the most amazing, strong individual. She has created something so special for her family, and I think, for Korea. This is our first official Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast. Seriously, my eyes are all watery. I just cannot wait to hear this story. Julie was just saying how she’s been dying wanting to call me this week while she has been in Korea, but she didn’t want to share her story because it is Paige’s story, but I love that I get to have both of them on the show. So hello, you guys. I’m sorry. I just am rambling. Paige: Hi. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. We have Paige. We have Julie. You guys know who they are. Julie, obviously, has been with The VBAC Link for a long time, and so has Paige.Julie: Been with The VBAC Link for a long time? Yeah.Meagan: Yeah, sorry. You created it. Julie: We created it. Meagan: Yeah, sorry. I’m thinking of Paige. Paige has been with The VBAC Link for a long time. If you didn’t know, she actually heads the CBAC group, the CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and she transcribes all of these incredible episodes. So thank you, Paige, and welcome everybody.Paige: Thank you. So yeah, I’m just sitting here in my little corner of The VBAC Link team doing my transcribing which I feel like maybe is just a little drop in the birth world bucket until something more happens for me. I’ve been with The VBAC Link for the last 4 years, and I feel like it’s my way of preserving these stories. Spending time with the women on the podcast is such an honor, and it’s just one of my favorite things to do. I’ve learned so much, and truly, we’ll get into it, but I wouldn’t have had this birth experience in the same way if it were not for The VBAC Link and for being on the team. So truly, thank you to both of you. You’ve changed my life. All right, what’s that?Meagan: I was going to say that you’ve made our life better. Paige: Aw, thank you.Julie: Yes, absolutely. It is so cool to see this. Me and Paige were just talking last night about this and how it’s kind of a full-circle moment. We were going over her other births and how we got here and how she got here. It’s just so cool. I am so thrilled about how everything played out. There were so many little miracles. I think miracles is not the right word. There were so many special blessings and things that led her to this point. I cannot wait to hear all of it from her perspective. It’s so fun to be here and share on the podcast and really, this story is going to change lives. It’s going to change lives. It’s going to change birth. It is going to be something that people talk about and use as inspiration and hope as they prepare for their own births, no matter how they birth because there’s a lot of advocacy involved. I think that’s the biggest thing. There’s a lot of advocacy. Paige did a lot of advocating for herself and what she wanted. It doesn’t have to be literally the same way that she birthed for anybody to take inspiration from it, so I would just encourage everybody to listen because she is such a good example of fighting for what she wants, and shifting and rolling with the punches. I am just so inspired by Paige. You mentioned it too, Meagan. I am just so inspired by how she has approached all of this. Yeah, there are lots of life lessons. Lots of life lessons in this birth. Meagan: Yes.Julie: Stay tuned, everybody. It’s a good one.Meagan: All right, Ms. Paige. We’re turning the time over to you. Let’s hear it because I cannot wait. Paige: Okay, so I’m going to start with a brief overview of my first three births. I’m a mom to four boys. I never thought that would be my story, with four C-sections. I never thought that would be my story, but it is, and it’s beautiful. For my first birth, I got pregnant in September 2015. We were living in Hawaii at the time, but moved to Lawton, Oklahoma. I received prenatal care there at the Army hospital. It was pretty straightforward, just the What to Expect When You’re Expecting type prep. They have this program called the New Parent Support Program which is really great for new families.  A nurse comes to your home, educates you, and gives you resources. I did that. That was really nice. I had a friend who was a doula. We took a hospital childbirth class and watched things like The Business of Being Born, but other than that, I was mostly just really afraid of childbirth in general. I was afraid of dying. I just wanted to survive. I didn’t really have any specific birth preferences. I have struggled with anxiety and panic attacks throughout my life, so I thought that if I could just survive, that would be a big win. My OB was a family friend, and I felt very safe with him. He had a great bedside manner. I didn’t really push any questions. I just trusted him fully and completely. At 34 and 6, I noticed that I started leaking fluids. My New Parent Support Program nurse had advised me that if I had noticed any kind of new discharge or anything like that– colorless, odorless fluid to go and get it checked out immediately. So I did. My husband drove me. I remember I had not eaten lunch, but it was lunchtime. I was like, “Oh, just drop me off. This will be fast, then we will go get lunch.” The midwife there tested the fluids and confirmed it was amniotic fluid. I remember my OB walked in. He said, “You are leaking amniotic fluid. We need to have this baby today. The baby will be fine at 35 weeks, and it’s better for the baby to come than for you to stay pregnant basically and risk an infection.” So I was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I trust you.” I got a steroid shot for lung development at 35 weeks. Then they started me on an IV with antibiotics because I didn’t have my GBS test back yet. Then he also told me that the Army hospital there did not have a NICU to support a 35-weeker and that I would need to be transferred to the civilian hospital in town. So I would have to be transferred. Since I was already on an IV, they were just going to do it via ambulance. It was my first time ever riding in an ambulance. He also said that he legally wouldn’t be able to deliver me, but he would go with me and help me make decisions. That was really nice of him to go, but still just the sheer fact that I was going to be riding in an amublance for the first time, I was going to be having the baby that day, and then I was going to have a completely new doctor, was just sheer overload going into a birth that I was already afraid of. Yeah, it was not the best circumstances for a successful induction. I arrived at the hospital. I met the doctor very briefly. I called my doula friend. She came and helped me. We did what we could, but ultimately, my body was just not showing any signs of being ready. I had no contractions at all. I was completely closed and not even soft. No dilation. My cervix was just not showing any signs of progress. After about 14 hours on Pit, they came in. I remember I had the dull cramping from the Pit, but nothing really intense. I also just remember being so painfully hungry, and they wouldn’t let me each. But since I hadn’t had lunch, I was just so hungry where you get the body chills and stuff. Anyway, the doctor came in, said he was having decels. He recommended having a C-section because my water had been broken for over 12 hours. I consented. I was so afraid. I remember when they were putting in the spinal, I was just heaving sobs into this poor nurse. You go in and prep. The C-section itself was fine. My arms were strapped down. I didn’t feel pain, but I remember it was like an elephant was sitting on my chest. It was like, “Oh, it just feels like somebody’s sitting on my chest.” It wasn’t horrible, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. But then, he was whisked away to the NICU. I briefly saw him swaddled with a hat on, then he was whisked away. No skin-to-skin for my husband or me, obviously. He was 4 pounds, 14 ounces at birth. They wouldn’t let me go see him until I felt ready to go. I was just so swollen from all of the fluids. I was so nauseous anytime I would sit up. I just was not ready in any state to try to go walk or be wheeled to the NICU. Finally, 36 hours after delivery, I was able to meet him. We named him before that over FaceTime, but he was in the NICU for 7 days. I wasn’t traumatized because I survived and that was my goal. I met my goal, and I was really proud of myself for facing the fear, but hoped for something different the next time. With the second birth, I got pregnant in July of 2017. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage early on that resolved. We were in Texas at the time. It was Fort Hood back then, but I met with many different OB providers at the Army hospital on base there. I felt okay with it because I had a neighbor who was going for a VBAC after two C-sections. She was really supported, and then she had a successful experience there. Because of my 35-week PPROM, they suggested that I go on the Makena progesterone shots once a week from 16 to 36 weeks. I did that. They worked very, very well. I switched to the midwife track because everything was going fine. The midwives were really great. They were really holistic. They supported inducing a VBAC if needed, but they also supported me going into spontaneous labor past 41 weeks. I made it to 41 and 5. The VBAC Link was not a thing back then yet, so I did not have that resource, but I did read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth and the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way. I read The Birth Partner. I kind of started dipping my toes into real birth education. I was learning about the physiological process of birth, learning how to do it without being afraid, and learning to trust my body. It was really empowering. It was the prep that I needed at that time. I didn’t know about bodywork. I ended up having prodromal labor for about a week. It was pretty intense, but I didn’t know anything about positioning, posterior, or Spinning Babies. I did find that out right at the end as I was going through it, but I didn’t do chiro or any of that. I finally went in for an induction at 41+5 in April 2018. I ended up having to go with an OB on call because the midwife didn’t feel comfortable with the NSTs that she saw, so she didn’t want to take me on. I was like, “Oh, dangit.” The OB who was there was one who I wasn’t really super comfortable with. But he was like, “Oh, well I know you really want a VBAC. We’ll try to get that for you.” I was like, “Okay.”I got a Foley. I was barely a 1, but they got a Foley in and I progressed very quickly. I got to a 5 within a couple of hours. Things were going really great. They were very normal labor patterns. I felt like I was managing the contractions really well. I did consent to artificial rupture of membranes, then labored a little while longer. I got an epidural at 7 centimeters. I was told, “Oh, we just had a mom who got an epidural. She relaxed, and the baby came right away.” You hear that and you’re like, “Oh, I want that. Yes.” So I did that. I got the epidural at about 6:30ish, and then between that half hour, his heart just wasn’t doing well. They were flipping me. I got an amnioinfusion. I got a fetal scalp electrode. I got an IUPC, all the things. Then they gave me oxygen. It was probably about 7:00. He had a prolonged decel. I was lying flat and there were people all around me. The nurse was just like, “We need him now. Do you consent to a C-section?” I was like, “Yes.” Then I surrendered and let it go. I was like, “There goes the VBAC. This is just what needs to happen.” He was born at 7:09, and I was born under general anesthesia for that one. His APGARS were 8/9. My husband was left alone during that surgery. We do have pictures of him holding my son and doing skin-to-skin at 7:27, so about 20 minutes after he was born. I woke up and got to hold him at about 8:45, so about an hour and a half after he was born. I remember it was just really hard to talk after being intubated, but they let me breastfeed right away. I was disappointed, but I don’t feel like I had a lot of trauma from that just because I was so empowered. I ended up ultimately making it to an 8. It was so fun for me to see what my body could do. I was like, “Oh, this just means that I was meant for a VBAC after two C-sections. That’s what it meant.” Right then in the OR, or I guess it was the recovery room. I committed that that was going to be my story. I was like, “Oh yeah. That’s just what it’s meant to be. That’s why it didn’t work out.” I was so empowered. Then when I got pregnant for the third time in September 2019, we were in Germany. We had just moved there. I hit the ground running. I hired a doula right away and a backup doula. The prenatal care was at this small, tiny clinic in a town called Parsberg. I chose not to get progesterone shots. I was like, “I was 41+5. I think I’ll be okay without them.” Yep, that’s when I discovered The VBAC Link and all of the birth podcasts. I just became obsessed listening all the time, taking notes. I did the bodywork. I watched tons of birth videos. I did cranioscral therapy, chiropractic, and Spinning Babies. I took The VBAC Link Parents Course. I read lots of books. I switched my insurance. I took vitamins. I consumed it all, and I loved it. Every time I did something, I felt like my intuition was confirming that I was on the right path. I specifically would manifest, visualize, and pray, and I just was on this high every time. I feel like that’s your intuition confirming to you that you’re on the right path. If you feel those things, that’s a good sign. You do want to follow that. Meagan: 100%. Paige: I did. Then, COVID. It was September 2019 when I got pregnant. Things were fine, fine, fine, and then COVID started happening. In March, I flew home to Denver to stay with my in-laws. We were supposed to move to Colorado in the spring anyway. My husband was not allowed to come with me. There was a travel ban for 90 days. I just did not want to get stuck in that, so I flew out very quickly with my boys– my two boys. I was 27 weeks pregnant and was living in my in-laws basement. That’s a whole thing. COVID was a whole thing for everybody. But it was a scary time and stressful. I didn’t know if my husband would be able to make it to the birth, but he was granted an exception to policy leave where he was able to come home. He would have to go back. That was the contingency. But I had rebuilt my team. I had found new bodyworkers. I found a new doula and a new backup doula. I found a team of midwives who were really VBA2C supportive. They were saying things like, “When you get your VBAC,” not if. They really supported all the things, so I felt really comfortable with them. I lost my mucus plug and had bloody show on June 8th. I was 40 weeks. That was my due date. My water broke that night at 11:00 PM. I had a small pop, so it was just a litte bit. I was laboring at home. Nothing really was picking up, but on June 9th, at 40+1, I went into the hospital around 3:00 PM. Labor started picking up pretty quickly after that. About an hour and a half later, my waters gushed everywhere which was really thrilling for me to experience the big gush. I was not very far along, though. My progress is just very slow, but they were not rushing me at all. They were like, “We’ll stay patient. We will stay very patient. There is no rush. As long as baby is doing well, we’ll just let you do your thing.” My doula was there. After my waters broke, my contractions started coupling on top of each other and getting very intense. They were quite long. I started feeling really lightheaded and dizzy. I tried to sit on the toilet and just felt like I was going to pass out. I threw up a few times. I knew it was time to get some pain relief. They offered the walking epidural option which I took at about 8:00 PM. Baby was doing great. I was really worried about getting the epidural again because I felt like that’s what had caused the craziness before, but he was doing great. At 2:00 AM, he started not doing great. He wasn’t tolerating the contractions well. I was like, “Oh, not again. What?” I was only 4 centimeters. I just knew that we needed to go in again. I didn’t know why, but I was so sad. I didn’t want another crash, so I did want to prevent another crash. I knew that if it was going to be a heart thing, I didn’t want to mess with that. Especially knowing the signs of pain and coupling contractions and things like that, it just seemed like he was telling me that he needed to come. I consented to the OR and to the C-section. I was wheeled to the OR. I remember as I was being wheeled in, I was just thinking, “This is not what I want. This is not what I want. This is not what I want.” I was so sad. He was born about an hour later. I was so drowsy. I was so tired. I was not present at all. I did not feel strong enough to hold him. My husband held him. I briefly brushed his face. He was wearing his little hat and was swaddled, then they took him to the recovery room. The doula was not allowed in the OR. It was actually a miracle she was allowed at all because they had just lifted the doula ban the week before for COVID. I was like, “Okay, the baby will be in there with her.” I’m not sure why they wouldn’t let the baby just stay with Sam, but it’s okay. I needed his support. I was really happy that he was there. Closure took longer than usual. They said I had pretty thick adhesions, so I was just laying there trying everything to stay awake. I was fighting so hard. I remember reading words on the light and looking at the letters and just going over the letters in my mind and trying to stay awake. I was fighting so hard to stay awake. I finally got to hold him at 4:00 AM in the recovery room. It was still about an hour after he was born. I missed the golden hour again. I was so sad. I was so sad for a third time to miss it. That recovery was really hard. In the hospital, I was so heartbroken. The trauma this time really hit me emotionally and spiritually. It was physically a lot more traumatic on my body for whatever reason. I mean, just the sheer labor was so intense. My incision was black and blue and puffy. I couldn’t walk normally and I didn’t feel normal for 5 or 6 weeks, but I also feel like it’s because I was so sad. I think how sad you are really does affect how you feel physically. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Paige: I do remember specifically too, my first shower there. My husband had to really help me walk over. I was so sticky from all of the sensors and monitors. He was so tenderly trying to help me wash them off. I was just sobbing. I was so sad. I felt so broken and so vulnerable. It was a beautiful time for my husband to be there and carry me because he knew how badly I wanted the VBAC that time and for him to just carry me through that. But going home, I went home to my in-laws' basement. It was dark. I didn’t have a support village because it was COVID. COVID moms know what that was like. Anyway, ultimately, I did reach out to Meagan and Julie. That’s when the CBAC group was started. I was like, “Is there any way we could start a CBAC support group where CBAC moms can connect?” You guys were so warm and welcoming. Immediately you were like, “Yes! Why hadn’t we thought of that?” Julie, you were so gung-ho about that. I was able to connect to other moms through there which was so healing. Anyway, that was the third story. Then the time between three and four was really, really pivotal for me. The healing that I felt I needed before even thinking about trying to get pregnant was where I feel like this all really starts. When you don’t get the birth that you hoped for or when you don’t get a VBAC, you just feel embarrassed. You feel ashamed. You feel broken. You feel like your intuition doubted you. You feel dumb. I’ve seen many women comment how family members would be like, “Oh, I knew it wasn’t going to happen for you.” It’s hard. It’s really hard. You feel very, very broken.I knew that I had to show up for myself and still give myself grace. For this birth, it was good for me because I was able to face not failure, but being wrong. I was able to face being wrong and show myself that I could still be there. Anyway, I started physically diving into healing through pelvic PT and doing a lot of scar adhesion work. The dolphin neurostimulation tools if you haven’t heard about those are fantastic. I feel like they worked much better for me than scar massage. I wish I had a provider here now who would do it. I think maybe that would have helped this pregnancy and birth, but it helped my recovery so much.I started having really bad panic attacks and postpartum anxiety, so I went to talk therapy. I got on medication. I went to a chiropractor again. The thing that really, really helped my healing was joining a gym and falling in love with exercise again. I got into all of the things, the yoga, running, learning how to lift, and started really pushing my body again and trusting my body again. I didn’t expect exercise to heal that relationship with my body, but I feel like it really did. I learned again that I am physically strong which was really, really nice. I started signing up for some races. I ran my first half marathon. I had a lot of emotional releases during yoga. There was one song that came on one time during a yoga practice. It said, “You can’t rush your healing. Darkness has its teaching.” I loved that so much. I just started crying. I was just like, “Let it out.”Part of healing is welcoming the grief when it comes, processing it, and taking it a little bit of a time. It’s such a process. You get little glimmers of understanding, but as you keep committing yourself to looking for that and looking for the understanding, it does come. I truly believe that. Anyway, life went on. There is a four-year gap in between my third and my fourth which I really needed. We moved to Korea in that time. We moved to Korea last June, and it’s just been lovely. We knew that we wanted one more. I knew I was so happy with the prep and how vigorously I did it. I was proud of myself for that and I knew that I wanted to do it the same way.I knew that after everything I learned, even if it was going to be a C-section, I couldn’t just show up to the hospital and have them take my baby. I knew too much. I was like, “I know that there are better ways. I know that providers practice differently from place to place. I know it’s not all equal. I know every provider does things differently, even with C-sections.” I started watching videos, and I saw that even the way they performed their C-sections was not the same. I wanted to be really actively involved in how they practiced, and how I was going to be a part of it. My goals for this time were not necessarily VBAC or C-section. I never closed the door completely. I was like, “You never know. Maybe VBA3C, maybe that’s my story. Who knows?” However, I did find the episode by Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. As I was transcribing that one, my fire for birth that I held felt for VBAC was coming to life again. That intuition was speaking to me, and I had not felt that fire in a long time. That was the first whisperings of, “You should try this. You should go for this.” The goals that I had for this baby were to be very intentional. I wanted the golden hour. I had to have the golden hour. I had to hold my baby first or within an hour. Please, oh my gosh. I carried so much guilt for not having that three times over. I also wanted to be treated like I mattered. I did not want to be part of a rotation. I wanted continuity of care. I did not want to feel like I was just being shuffled through a system. Whether it was a hospital or not, I knew that I wanted to feel special. Lo and behold, did I know how special I would feel at my sweet birth center. Okay, so with the intention thing, just the pieces of this birth story with number four started falling into place so specifically. I can’t deny that spirituality was a big part of this because with number three, my prayers had been very, very specific. I knew that God knew what I wanted. I knew it. I knew that because I didn’t get it, there was a specific reason why. That’s the only thing I could cling to. As things specifically started falling into place, it started to confirm to me that this was my path and these were the reasons why the other things happened the way they did. But anyway, I got pregnant very quickly with this baby. It was the first time that it wasn’t a total surprise which was really fun. I had been taking tests since I knew the day that I ovulated, and then I was just taking tests watching, watching, and watching. I was able to see the first faint line which was so fun. I had always wanted that. I had wanted that moment of, “Oh my gosh, I’m pregnant,” where before it was like, “What? I’m not quite ready,” but I was still excited. That was really fun for that. The Korea birth culture here is very intense. The C-section rate is 50-60%. There are constantly stories being shared on these local pregnancy pages of women just having the most traumatic experiences and my heart aches for them. It’s very routine for doctors to suggest first-time moms to, “Go have a C-section. Your baby is big,” and not even trying to labor. Most of it is because there is a doctor’s strike going on here. There is a limited number of providers. They are stressed. They don’t allow husbands typically in the OR, and very routinely, they are under anesthesia. Then after birth, babies are typically taken away to nurseries, and then postpartum recovery is in an open bay type thing. Meagan: Like, combined? Paige: Exactly, yeah. Your C-section stays are typically about 8 days. I wanted to explore options. We have an Army hospital here that is pretty big and does provide labor and delivery services, but they’re often maxed out so you’re referred off post. I did not feel comfortable going to any of the places that they typically referred to just from stories I had heard. That’s all it takes for me now. I just hear one story and I’m like, “Nope, no thank you.” I know my red flags very quickly now. I went to a tour at this birth center called Houm. It’s spelled H-O-U-M. At 8 weeks, I went to go tour it. I noticed a lot of green flags, not red ones where I was just like, “Oh, I’m just going to take a note of that.” Some of the green flags from my tour as I walked in were how I felt right when you stepped off the elevator. It’s this calm energy. The lighting is so beautiful. It’s such a lovely set up right when you walk in. You take off your shoes because you are in Korea. You take off your shoes, then multiple staff members greeted me with a hug. That’s when I met Dayana Harrison who I later ended up hiring as my doula, but she also served as my midwife. She is a student midwife working there right now. She took me on the tour. They have queen-sized beds in their labor rooms. The whole floor was dim and so quiet. It did not have a hospital vibe at all, but they do have an OR on site. I was like, “Oh, this is lovely.” They offer epidural. They have huge birthing tubs with the rope attached from the ceiling. They are so beautiful. Yeah, it’s in each room. Then the OR on site does not feel like a hospital OR. It’s smaller. They keep it warmer. It feels like– I don’t know. It just had such a homey feeling. That’s the best way I can describe it. Then some of the things I asked about, in their routine gentle Cesareans, moms routinely get skin-to-skin immediately. They have a little cut open in the curtain where baby is slid through right on your chest. They routinely would keep the placenta attached to the baby in the OR which is–Meagan: Almost not heard of. Paige: Since posting that video, I can’t believe how many messages of, “How did you do that?” That’s revolutionary in itself. That was a huge green flag where I was like, “Oh my gosh, what?” Typically, what is it? Why do they say you can’t do that? Is it because the incision is open too long?Meagan: Yeah. They don’t even allow delayed cord clamping most of the time. They just milk it because it’s a major surgery. The more time the mom is exposed and open, the higher chance they have of things like infection. Once baby is out, they really want to wrap it up and finish it to be complete. Yeah. To actually leave a placenta attached to a baby is unheard of. It really is unheard of in a Cesarean. Paige: Yeah. So that was super awesome. Then they let you keep the baby. He encourages C-sections past 39 weeks. That’s not a routine hard and stop final date. He encourages going into labor before saying that it’s good for the baby. He encourages breastfeeding in the OR. The head OB, his name is Dr. Chung. He is also an IBCLC which I thought was so awesome. So he supports breastfeeding.Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. The more I learn about this man, the more I love him. Paige: Did you not know that?!Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I want to meet him. Julie: I want to put him in my pocket and take him with me to deliver every birth I ever go to ever. I love him. Paige: I’ve literally said the exact same thing, Julie. I wish I could just keep him with me forever. That’s the thing. Throughout this whole process, I kept taking note of these green flags. I’m thankful for my other experiences because I don’t think a lot of people recognize how green these flags really are. I was like, “Okay, the shoe’s going to drop. The shoe’s going to drop. There’s something.” I’ll keep going.Meagan: Can I mention too? You had Marco Polo’d me, “I’m on my way,” then you would leave, and you were like, “This is amazing.” You were just like, “This is right,” every single time. The more you went, the more it verified that you were in the right place. Paige: Yep, yeah. You just know. When you know, you know. During that appointment, he came specifically and talked to me three times. Three times. He shook my hand. I’m like, “Are you not busy? What? Three times, you have time to see someone who is just touring?” He only sees 15 patients. He is very VBAMC supportive and experienced with it. He supports vaginal breech birth. They do ECVs on-site. I didn’t even bring up VBAC after three. I just mentioned that I had three C-sections, and he said something like, “Oh, do you want a VBAC? Do you want to try again?” I was like, “Oh, I mean, I don’t know. I’m thinking about it.” Then, he made me cry. This was at the tour. He made me cry because he said, “I’m a different doctor because I listen to moms. I listen. They tell me how they want to birth. If you want a VBAC after three C-sections, I will support you. You can do it. You choose how you want your birth to go and I will worry about the bad.” He was like, “You don’t need to worry.” I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I started crying. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to go now.” I was not composed, and then he hugged me. I was like, “What? Who is this guy?” I didn’t just jump over there. I did give the Army hospital a chance. I went to a couple of appointments there, and that was kind of all I needed to know for what I wanted. I’m so thankful they are a resource there. I’m thankful that they are here. But I did ask about their routine Cesarean practices and their VBAC practices. It was important to me to find a doctor who supported VBAC even if that wasn’t what I was planning to go for. I still love VBAC so much. I think it’s so beautiful and such an important option for women to have. I’m so passionate about it. I always will be. They didn’t even humor the idea at all of VBAC after three. They were like, “Oh, no. You’re going to have a C-section. Of course.” The idea was laughable. The C-sections only allowed one support person, no breastfeeding in the OR, no photographers. Arms are strapped down. I just was like, “Okay.” I was very gently asking questions, but then was like, “Uh-uh. Red, red, red flags.” My biggest piece of advice, and we say this over and over again, is to find a provider whose natural practices align with the things that you want. Julie: That is it. That is it so much. Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt again, but let’s put bold, italics, emphasis, and exclamation points on what you just said. Say it again. Say it again for the people in the back. Paige: Find that provider whose routine practices align as closely as possible with what you want. Julie: Preach, girl. Preach, girl. I love it. Paige: Because we’re not meant to fight. You do not want your birth experience to be a place of fighting or stress. Julie is learning that I am a people pleaser. I’m not anything special. I did not stand my ground. I’m going to do this. I did not come blazing in. I found a provider who I felt very, very safe with, who I felt safe asking for this from, and he said yes. I knew that because his practices were so close to the MAC, he would be the most receptive. But there’s a chance that he wouldn’t have been, and he was. That’s why ultimately it worked out because he was receptive. I couldn’t have forced him to do it, but because he practices closely to it already, it wasn’t as much of a push. If I tried to go to that Army hospital and introduce this idea, they’d just shut it down. Meagan: You know, that’s what is so heartbreaking to me. Providers all over the world really just shut that down if it doesn’t match their normal routine and their everyday thing. It’s like, well, hold on. Let’s listen. Why are people requesting this? Just like Dr. Natalie, she saw this and was like, “This is something that means something to people. Why don’t we change the norm and create something different?” Providers, if you are listening, please try and make change in your area because it matters, and it doesn’t have to be exactly how it’s been. Paige is living proof of this. It just doesn’t have to be that. But we can’t make change if no one puts forth the effort or allows it. Paige: Dr. Natalie said that exactly. She said, “Let’s make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Paige: She said, “If there’s a way to make it better, why not? Why not?”Meagan: Why not? Because like it or not, birth impacts us. It sticks with us. You’re now explaining four different stories. It’s not something we just forget. We don’t just walk away from these experiences. They stay with us. Now, we might process and are able to move forward in a different direction, but it’s not like we forget, so why can’t we make this change? It actually baffles me. Julie: Well, and the mode of delivery is the same. I really want to emphasize that. She has had four C-sections, and they were all very different. But the only one where she left walking out of it really feeling empowered is the last one where she chose a provider who aligned with what she desired for her birth, she had a say in her care, and she felt loved and supported the whole way. She felt like the staff cared about her needs.But also, time out. She didn’t just feel like the staff cared about her needs. They did. They did actually, genuinely care about her needs and her experience. I feel like that’s such a big difference. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Sorry, Paige. You can continue. We got on a little soapbox. Paige: You’re good.Julie: I feel like we’re starting to tell the story before the story is told. Paige: No, it’s great. We’re getting close. I switched to them officially at 20 weeks. My first appointment was the anatomy scan. That’s when I also proposed the idea of the MAC officially. After every ultrasound, he comes in, talks to you, looks at it, then you go into his office area where you just chat and ask any questions. That’s just the routine setup of the appointments. I had this video prepared, and I was really nervous. It’s scary. It is scary to ask your provider for something new and different. I had this video. It’s on YouTube. It’s by Olive Juice Photography. Everybody should go look at it. It’s the birth of Betty Mae. It’s the video that I watched over and over and over again because it’s the only video I could find of the process from the beginning to the end including all of the prep and including how it was done. I was like, “I saw this online. I was wondering if you could watch it and tell me what you think.” That’s how I presented it. It’s a long video. It was like, 5 minutes. He just sat there patiently and watched. Then after, actually one thing he did say was, “I don’t like how he’s using forceps.” I was like, “Oh, green flag.” Then, he asked, “Is this what you want?” I said, “Yeah. I think it would be really special if it could happen.” Then, he said, “Then, we can do that.” Then, he thanked me for giving him the opportunity to grow and try something different. He said, “Will you email that video to me and any other resources?” I emailed Dr. Natalie, and she sent over a MAC PowerPoint that she had prepared of the procedures because from the episode, she was like, “Anybody interested doing this, reach out to me.” She is true to her word. She will do that. If you are interested and you want to contact her, she is very responsive. She sent me also her MAC hospital policy which I forwarded to him. I have to share what he said. He’s so cute. In the email response, he said, “I watched the video you sent again. If necessary, we will contact Dr. Natalie to prepare for your perfect Cesarean delivery. Thank you so much for this great opportunity to serve you. I am excited to help your birth and confident it will be a great opportunity for further growth for us.” I was like, oh my gosh. Meagan: That literally just gave me the chills. Paige: I could not believe it. Dayana, who is also a student midwife there at home, told me that she had been planting seeds for maternal assist for a while. They had just been waiting for a mom to ask for it. That was also the time that I hired Julie. I was like, “Julie, that would be so fun if you could come out.” Then Julie was like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Then I’m like, “Okay.” Then it happened, and Julie was just so brave to have the gumption to come out. Fun fact, she was previously stationed out here with the Army. It does seem like it all kind of worked out that Korea wasn’t so out of touch for her, maybe. Julie: Yeah, no. It was really cool. You had mentioned it briefly, then I was like, “Oh, I wish I could make that work.” Then, I remember I was in the CBAC group. I was like, “Oh, I’m so excited for you,” or something, then you said something like, “I really wish you could come and document it. We would cover your travel out here and everything.” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, really?” So then I talked to my husband about it. I was going to be gone for a while. He would have to hold down the fort and everything. I talked to him and he was like, “Yeah, I think that would be okay.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, Paige. My husband is fine with it. Let’s do this.” I remember the day that you booked my flights and officially signed my contract and locked in and everything, then I told my husband and he was like, “Oh, this is really happening then?” I was like, “Nick, I gave you the change. I gave you the chance to eject. It’s too late now.” He’s been doing really great. He’s a really great dad. The on-call life means he has to just take over the house at random moments. We are set up to where we can do that. It was just really funny. I’m so excited that we could make it work. Paige: This is my public thanks to Nick and all of Julie’s children for allowing her to be here because it did require sacrifice on their part, truly. I’m just so thankful. I also found out, Dayana told me that she had been asked to prepare a whole presentation for the staff on MAC which she did. She prepared it for nurses, midwives, and anesthesia walking them through. The fact that she had that connection to Houm and that experience, she served as my doula but so much more. She was so much more as my advocate having that inside access to the staff. We scheduled a surgical rehearsal for 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, this was one of my favorite things. He personally was there to walk me through every step of what it would look like for my security, but I don’t feel like I really needed it because I was very, very familiar, but for the comfort of the staff and everybody else too. I got to the appointment. My husband was able to be there with me on that one. The way it’s set up– we’ll post our video then you can visualize more of what the layout looks like. There’s the prep room, then literally 10 steps across is the OR right there. In the prep room, they had a gown ready for me. They had the washing bins ready. So the way that it works, you go in. You put the gown on. You have the IV. They showed me where they would place the IV. Then you scrub up your hands. You wash with the sterile solution, and then they put gloves on top. This was the way that they did it. Then they walked me into the OR. They showed me how I would go sit up on the table, how I would receive my spinal through anesthesia, then they practiced laying me back down. They did everything step by step. It wasn’t new to me. I’ve had C-sections before, so I knew, but it was just so sweet that they were so thorough. They showed me how they would insert the catheter. He showed me exactly how he would lay the drapes over my body. He showed me when the curtain would go up. The way they do it, you’re not just watching the whole thing the whole time. You could, I guess, opt for that if you wanted to. You have the drape up, they do the initial incision, get the baby out up to his head, and then they drop the curtain. That’s when they pull your arms down. The other thing too, the reason why they do strap your arms down is in case you impulsively reach down and touch your incision and breach the sterile field. That’s the reason why arms being strapped down is even a thing. But for MAC, your arms are not strapped down obviously. They have somebody holding their hand on your hands which I don’t think I even had. Looking back, I don’t remember anybody touching my hands or my arms. But that wasn’t an issue. It wasn’t something that I impulsively wanted to do, to reach down there. Anyway, then the drape goes down. They guide your hands up and over to put your hands under his armpits. Come up. Bring your baby to your chest. The curtain goes back up during closure, and then they talked about how I’d be transferred back to the recovery room– not the recovery room. No recovery room. You go to the postpartum room immediately. I felt on such a high after that. It was just so beautiful how he did that. At 38 weeks, I had an ultrasound. They do ultrasounds at every appointment. I don’t know that there is a perfect practice out there that aligns with absolutely everything you want. But they do routine ultrasounds. I wasn’t really concerned about that, but they did flag something called kidney hydronephrosis. It’s basically the swelling of the kidney. They had been monitoring that. It had presented late in the third trimester, but it was severe enough that they were starting to get really concerned about it. Basically, it can mean that there is an obstruction, and if it’s really severe, it can mean that the baby needs to be evaluated within 48 hours of birth by a pediatric urologist which clearly they don’t have on site. It was a whole thing. If it really is severe and there is an obstruction, then they need to do surgery really promptly to prevent kidney damage early on. That was the thing. He did suggest that I could deliver somewhere else, and then the baby would be able to be there and we would be together in the same facility. That’s when I felt like the shoe dropped. I was like, “Why would he suggest that? He knows that I would not want to deliver anywhere else. Why would he even bring that up?” I was all a mess. I was alone at that appointment. I felt a little bombarded and ambushed. I was like, “This isn’t going to happen. I’m not going to get it.” That night, Dayana called me. I was getting ready to reach out to her, but she called me. She was like, “I just wanted to check in.” I had emailed Dr. Chung a clarification email. I think that’s really important too. If something doesn’t sit well with you in your appointment, it’s okay to follow up in an email just to clarify what happened. Can you lay out these options? Can you lay out what we went through? Can I have a record of the ultrasound and what you saw? Because then you’re not just swirling these things in your mind. You’re actually looking, then you can do your own research. I dove into research. I dove into studies. I compared the numbers that he gave me versus what I saw, and it all did align. She called me and she was like, “No, don’t worry. He is comfortable moving forward. He thought that you would be concerned, so he wanted to present you with more options to deliver somewhere else, but he is very happy to deliver you here still and sticking with our plan. He does want to see you at a follow-up ultrasound at 39 weeks,” which I was comfortable with. I was like, “Sam, you’ve got to come with me. I can’t go alone.” She promised that she would be there. That’s another thing. When you have a team that you trust, make sure that you are supported, and it’s not just you and your doctor. If there’s something that doesn’t sit well, it really helps to field it with other people not just in labor, even in your prenatal appointments or anything like that. If you feel like you need some extra support, it does really help to bring some people with you who you trust. So at 39 weeks, we all met as a team and asked lots of questions. We felt comfortable with a care plan moving forward. We ultimately decided that we would move forward with the C-section at 39+5 which would be Monday. I’m trying to think what day that was. Meagan: The 7th. Paige: Monday, the 7th. Meagan: That’s what I had in my calendar. Paige: Monday, the 7th was the day. We talked about moving it up. All his colleagues were like, “No, you should deliver this baby now. What are you doing? You’re crazy keeping her pregnant.” I was like, “I am comfortable waiting, and I have to wait for Julie, so it can’t be until Friday. It can’t be until Friday.” She gets in on Thursday. That was Wednesday, at 39 weeks. Thursday was 39 and 1.Julie was on the plane, and then that morning on Thursday, I lost my mucus plug at about 8:00 AM. I was like, “Oh, no.” I wasn’t really having contractions or anything, so I was like, “Okay. We’ll still make it until Monday. It’s fine.” Then, Julie got in at about 7:00 PM. I started having some baby contractions. We were sitting around my kitchen table, and Julie was like, “Are you contracting right now?” I was like, “A little.” She was like, “Go take a bath.” Then, we went to bed. I took a bath, and then I went to bed. I was for sure just contracting. I was like, “But what about these logistics? What is going to happen?” Anyway, my childcare plan was going to be turned upside down and all of the things. I was stressed about the logistics. But then, I was woken up at about 10:00 PM by contractions. They were about 6-7 minutes apart, but they were definitely real. I thought they were prodromal, so I was just waiting for them to just go away. They started getting closer. They were close enough to about 4 minutes and sometimes 3. I was having more bloody show, so I was like, “These are kind of doing something.” The intensity increased. It got to the point where I couldn’t lie down. I was on my hands and knees. I was standing up, bracing myself against the wall. I was trying to do different positions. Maybe it was just a positional thing. “Let me try to do flying cowgirl. Let me try to do Walcher’s”. I was trying to do different positions to try to stop them. I tried to take a bath at 3:00 AM, and they weren’t going away. I was like, “Okay, I can’t do this. I can’t risk it. We’ve got to go.” I woke up my husband. I was like, “Today’s the day. He’s just telling me that it’s the day. It’s time. I don’t know why, but it’s Friday. It’s supposed to be.” At 4:00 AM, he packed his bags. At 5:00 AM, I felt so bad because Julie had just gotten in from this huge international flight. It was a 12-hour flight plus some because you had a connection. I was like, “Julie, we’re going to go,” she was like, “Okay!” She was so excited. “Okay, let’s go!”Julie: I wake up to a knock on the door, and they’re all dressed and ready to go. I’m like, “Why did she not wake me up sooner? I could have supported you.” Paige: I felt so bad. Julie: Yeah. It was wild. It was so wild. I was ready. It was awesome. Paige: So at 5:00 AM, we left for the birth center. At 6:00 AM, we got there. I messaged my team. Dayana said she was on her way. They led me to my room which is just a beautiful suite. It’s right next to the OR. They led me to my room. They said that the anesthesiologist would be ready at about 10:00 AM, so between then, I would be laboring. Dr. Chung came in, and he said, “You need to be prepared for a VBAC to happen. You might have this baby just right here.” It was so funny that he was supportive of that idea even. It was so cute. I labored. It was getting intense, but they weren’t super close together. Dayana came. She jumped in, and she immediately just respected the space which was so beautiful. She started doing all of her– she’s a Body Ready Method practitioner. She’s done some training with Lynn Schulte and the Institute for Birth Healing, so she’s very familiar with the specific way to give you comfort measures. She was so great. I felt so safe. We labored, and my husband gave me a beautiful blessing. She said the more beautiful prayer that really invited heaven into the space and made it so spiritual and special. We were playing music, then at 9:00 AM, the head midwife, her name is Joy, came in. She started the IV.Dr. Chung came in and walked me to the prep room. In our rehearsal, I was going to be scrubbing myself, but he just picked up my hands, and he started washing my hands and scrubbing my hands for me. It felt like such a selfless act getting ready to go into this procedure. It felt like he was so respectful, and then I even had a contraction during the washing. He stopped what he was doing and was so respectful of the space. It just felt so Christlike having him wash my hands going into it. Then we walked into the OR, and they got me ready for anesthesia. They put in the spinal, and then they laid me down. They did the pinprick test. They gave me a new gown that was sterile. I’m trying to think of what else. They inserted the catheter. I could kind of feel a little bit with the pinprick test, but the catheter insertion was just pressure, so I felt comfortable moving forward. They got started. We played music. They had ice ready for me on my face because I told them when I get nauseous or anxious, I tend to get a little lightheaded. They had ice ready for me. That was something I had requested, and that was so nice. They started the surgery, and it was very, very intense. I do want to be candid that it was probably my most painful surgery. I had to work through it with labor-coping stuff. I was vocal. I did mention that I was feeling pain. It got pretty intense. I don’t know if in Korea in general– I know that they are a little bit more stingy about anesthesia, but it was okay. I don’t feel like I was traumatized from that. The baby came out at about 10:24. That’s when they say he was born. We were listening to music. I was vocalizing, then Dr. Chung says– what did he say? “Let’s meet your baby,” or “Come grab your baby”, or something like that. They lowered the drape, and it was so fast. I bring the baby up onto my chest, and everything just melted away, and this instinctual, primal– all of these emotions I didn’t know I had just poured out of me. I lost any sense of composure that I had. I was shrieking. In any other situation, I would have been so mortified, but that moment of not having it three times over, it was this release and this justification or this validation of finally having it. I just got to hold my baby. I was a little nervous about seeing a new baby for the first time without being swaddled and how they would be wet and slippery, and if that would freak me out a little bit, but I wasn’t worried about that at all. I was just so happy that I had him and so relieved. During closure, that was also intense too. They put the curtain up. They pulled out the placenta. They put it in a bowl, and then they put it in a bag, and they rest it right there next to you. The cord was so lovely and so beautiful. There is something about a fresh, new cord. It is so awesome to see. I thought it was the coolest. I had my husband. I was squeezing his hand. Honestly, I felt like having my baby in my arms and holding my husband’s hand was the best pain relief. In that moment, it was keeping me calm, keeping me steady, and getting me through the closure and the rest of the surgery.Then they transferred me to my postpartum room, and they just let us be there. They didn’t push cutting the cord. Dayana gave me a placenta tour. I was like, “When do we cut the cord?” She was like, “Whenever you want.” It ended up being about 2 hours of us just enjoying it and talking about how cool it was. Yeah. She gave us a tour. I was able to wear gloves and touch it and go through it, then Sam was able to cut the cord for the first time which was so awesome. That’s the gist of it. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I started crying. I’ve gotten chills. I have so many emotions for you just watching your video. I’ve literally watched it 10, maybe 15 times, and I can’t wait to see Julie’s entire thing that she caught. But I am just so– there are no words. I’m so happy for you. I’m so proud of you, and I’ve talked to you about this. I’ve Marco Polo’d you crying before where I can’t explain it. I am so insanely proud of you and happy for you that you got this experience. Thinking about, “I’ve never seen a gooey baby. I’ve never had that opportunity. My husband has never been able to cut the cord,” and you were able to have this beautiful experience where you got to have all of those things. It took four babies to get there, but you got there. You got there because you put forth the work. You learned. You grew, and you were determined. I think as listeners, as you’re listening, sometimes that’s what it takes. It’s really diving in, putting forth that effort, and finding what’s true for you. I know it’s hard, and I know not every provider out there is like Dr. Chung. He is a diamond in the rough from what it sounds like on so many levels. But they do exist. Again, going back to what you were saying, sometimes it just talks about Paige going in and saying, “Try to have an open mind. Look at this video. I would like for you to view this. Just take a look at it,” and left it in his hands. Sometimes, it just takes something so simple. But, oh my gosh. I can’t believe it. We were Marco Poloing about episodes, you guys, before she was in labor. We were also Marco Poloing about social media posts. She was like, “I just don’t want to say anything until it happens.” I think sometimes even then, I wonder if that’s where that ultrasound had come in and maybe there was doubt. I don’t know. It seems like maybe that aligns pretty well with the time that we were messaging and that. Maybe we were Marco Poloing or texting. I don’t know. It’s like, could this happen? Is it really going to happen? You want it to happen so bad, and then to see it unfold and to have it unfold in such raw beauty, oh my goodness. I cannot believe it.So in the OR, they let Julie in there, right?Paige: Oh, yeah. Dr. Chung is a photographer himself. Julie had asked me to ask him if she could move around or if she had to be stationary. He was so open to her walking anywhere and having free range of movement and having multiple sources of video and photo. Julie: Yeah, it was really cool. I want to speak a little bit to that side of things if that’s okay for a minute. Being a birth photographer is kind of complicated and sometimes logistically crazy especially as the baby is being born because everybody has a job to do. Not every provider and nurse is supportive– maybe not supportive. Not every provider and nurse is respectful of the fact that I also have a job to do and that these parents are paying me not a small amount of money to come in and do this job. That is very important to them to have this birth documented in a special way.It can be tricky navigating that especially times ten when it comes to being in the operating room. I have about a 50% success rate of getting in the OR back home. Some hospitals are easier than others. It’s always an honor and a privilege, I feel, when providers create a way for me to go in the OR because Cesarean birth is just as important, maybe even more important to have documented because it comes as a healing tool and a way to process the birth especially when most Cesareans are not planned. It was really cool to hear ahead of time about how supportive Dr. Chung was and how amazing he was going to be to let this happen. When we were in there, I don’t think I’ve ever moved around an OR as much as I have in that OR. Providers will tell you, “Oh, you’re not allowed in because the operating room is so small. Oh, the sterile field, we want to make sure you don’t pass out when you’re in there.” I think all of these excuses that people give are just regurgitating things. They don’t want another person in the OR. It’s just kind of dumb because that was the smallest OR that I have ever been in. I still was able to document it beautifully. I respected the sterile field. I wasn’t in anybody’s way. People were in my way which is fine because they had a way more important job to do to make sure Paige didn’t bleed out and that the baby was born and that Paige’s needs were met and things like that. I’m okay. I’m used to navigating around people in the space. I’m perfectly comfortable with that. It was so beautiful. I was down at her feet. Paige, I’ve actually been going through your images and choosing ones to include in your final gallery while you’ve been talking. I cannot wait to show you this. I have images of Dr. Chung pulling his head out, still images, of the head being born through the incision. It’s like crowning shots. It is this beautiful image of this baby’s head being born. Obviously, you’ve seen the one of his head all the way out. I just think it’s so beautiful. I consider it such a privilege and such and honor to have as much freedom in that room. I was literally at her feet, Meagan, documenting while he was cutting her open the adhesions and all of those things. There is video. There were images. I have chills right now. And then as baby was born, I was able to move up by her shoulders and document that and her reaching down for baby. I have all of that. I think that is such one more reason why Dr. Chung is amazing. It is such a rare gem, a diamond in the rough, because Paige now has the documentation for this beautiful story, and it’s just one more thing where we have work to do. We have lots of work to do, lots of work to do, and lots of advocacy with people asking for this. I just think it’s so important and so cool. It’s such a rare thing. I don’t even think I would have been able to do all of this back in the States. Meagan: No. Julie: I just think it was so cool. I’m determined to get these images to you before I leave so we can look at them together. I cannot wait for you to see them. I can’t. I’m just so excited. Paige: Well, it just makes me think of how often you’ve said, “If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any.” The purpose behind this, and why I felt I really did want to go for this option, and what was pulling me to it, is because I want to create options for women and to show them what’s possible. That’s why I wanted Julie to come. I wanted her. I told her specifically, “Document every step of the process so that women have more resources to see the ways we do it.” I didn’t do it exactly like the Olive Juice photography video. There are little variances between it, and that’s okay. But it was still so beautiful, so wonderful, and then also, I asked her to document the surgery itself because so much of it is going back and trying to process it in your mind while you’re going through it. I’m so glad she did. We walked through it last night, just the moment when I was in the most pain. It was actually really wonderful to see what he was doing which I wasn’t in the space to see at that time, but to go back and see, “Okay, that makes sense because he was maneuvering so much,” and to connect it. The connection piece was so valuable. For every Cesarean, I’m so passionate now that you need a doula. You need a midwife in there. You need a birth photographer. You need everybody in there. I knew it, but now, I’m so passionate that we need to advocate for ourselves just as much for planned Cesareans. Meagan: Absolutely. I still can’t believe it. I’m so happy. I love this story so much. I believe everyone should hear it because like you said, we need to be educated so we can apply what we need. We don’t know what we don’t know. This is what we’ve heard for so many years, but we can know. We can know our options, and it does take us doing it most of the time. The medical world out there is trying sometimes. Sometimes, they are not trying as well. But they are trying. They are also capped in a lot of ways with resources and with time. There’s just a lot that goes into it. So, dive in, you guys. Learn. Follow what you need. Follow what your heart is saying. If your heart is saying, “I want a different experience, it’s okay to push for that different experience.” Paige: Yeah, definitely. I’ll attach a lot of the resources that I used to help me in my prep. But I did just want to cap off by saying that I don’t feel like I’m anything special. I am not a birth worker. I am not a nurse. I don’t have a history of medical stuff. Dr. Chung was so cute. He was joking that I was a surgeon and getting ready to go do the surgery, but I’ve always been squeamish at blood and things like that. Don’t feel like you don’t want to go for it because you’re afraid that it will be a scary thing. It is such a natural, beautiful thing. It doesn’t feel as medical as it might seem. And even if you are scared, I was scared. It’s okay to do it scared if you think that it might be something beautiful and if your heart is, like Meagan said, calling you to it. We’re just moms, and moms are powerful, and that’s enough. Meagan: I love that. Julie: I love that. I think it’s really important. Paige, first of all, you are special, and this is why. Not everybody is brave enough to ask questions and be curious. It sounds so simple, and in a way, it is simple, but it’s not easy. I think that what makes you special and what truly sets you apart is that you were curious. You were exploring. You were asking questions. You were looking. You were learning, and not everyone will do that. I wish more people would do that because that’s what creates the change. You have to have people who are receptive to your needs, and you did. That is such a privilege and it’s so lucky because not everyone is going to be able to find that provider who aligns with the things that they need. But I feel like the most important thing that you did was be curious. Ask questions. Get to know what your options were. You looked at the hospital on post. You looked at the places they referred out to. You were like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,” and you kept looking. You kept exploring, and that’s what led you to this beautiful thing. Not everyone does that. It is not easy. It is hard. It took you a long time in order to find the thing, but this is the reality of it. Pregnancy is 9 months long which goes by so fast, but it’s lots of time. The time to start preparing is not 36 weeks when you realize your provider is going to do a bait and switch. The time to start getting ready is not 38 weeks when your provider wants to schedule a Cesarean for tomorrow. The time to get ready and ask questions and learn more is early on in pregnancy. That’s exactly what you did. That’s what I wish more people would do because it breaks my heart every time I see in The VBAC Link Community or any birth community ever or any birth story is people being sidelined by their provider at 38 weeks or 36 weeks because they are doing a bait and switch. It’s not always their fault. I realize I maybe sound like I’m blaming the parents. I’m not blaming the parents. I’m blaming the system. The system is failing them. But, you can never ask too many questions. You can never be too curious. I feel like if you find a provider who you love, keep looking for other options. Keep looking for other things because you never know when things are going to align. By searching for other options and other methods of delivery or other providers, you’re either going to to find one that aligns better with you or be affirmed that you’re making the right choice. There’s never a time when you should stop being curious. That’s exactly what you did. You kept being curious. You kept searching and finding better options or being solidified in your beliefs and your choices. I think that’s really important. And you are special. Paige: Thanks. You’re the best. Julie: Everybody is special. You’re special, but you don’t have any magical powers to create this avenue for you. You’re special in that you did this when it was hard. It’s simple, but it’s hard. Everybody can have that. Everybody can do the things that you did. Not everyone is going to find a Dr. Chung because he really is one in a million, I think. But yeah. Hopefully, that makes sense. Meagan: When you were saying, “I’m not special”, what came to my mind is that sometimes when we hear stories like this and see videos and things like this, it’s like, they must have superpowers because that doesn’t seem possible. That person must be so amazing to have made that possible. You guys, I will be the first to tell you that Paige is absolutely incredible, but she isn’t superwoman, and neither are Julie and I or any other people on this podcast. We’re not. We don’t have superpowers. We just dove in, followed our intuition, knew what felt right, and went for it. Sometimes that means starting before. Sometimes that means you find out information at 25 weeks and you’re like, “Oh crap. I’m 25 weeks behind, but I’m going to do this anyway,” and you dive in head first. No matter where your journey is, you deserve that. You deserve that. All of these Women of Strength here, just like Paige, can do it. You can, too. You really can, too. You guys are amazing. Make change. It’s okay. Know that you matter. You matter. Julie: Well, and it’s never too late. It’s never too late to get curious. If you find yourself at 38 weeks, and your provider is doing stupid things, get curious. Look. Search. Find. Create. Do something different, but try really hard not to just sit on your hands and hope for the best. Paige: Well, and if you’ve had a CBAC, or if you have done all of those things and it hasn’t worked out, it’s okay to take a chance on yourself again. It’s okay to be vulnerable again and to try again. It’s so hard, but it’s okay to do it again and try again. Meagan: Yeah, and to rap on that. If you do try again, and for some reason, it doesn’t pan out the exact way you want it, at least you went for it and you felt that you wanted to try, and you did try, and be involved in that situation too in that environment if it’s not working out. For me, I really wanted a VBAC. Could it have happened? Probably. Did it happen? No. As I was laying there on the operating table, we made that experience better. We made a better experience where I got that skin-to-skin because I didn’t get that the first time. I saw it. Even though it didn’t work out, that, to me, was the most healing experience. A lot of people think that’s weird to say, “You’re Cesarean was healing?”, but look at Paige. I will say wholeheartedly that my second Cesarean was healing. Even if it doesn’t work out, know that you still have options. There are other ways that you can do it. You don’t just have to be in this bright, sterile, beeping, noisy room. You can have music. You can have them lower the drape or have a clear drape. Maybe that’s not something you’re interested in, but maybe you want skin-to-skin. Maybe you want to talk to them about delayed cord clamping or even bringing that baby with the placenta like in Paige’s situation. These little things that might seem little impact us in such big ways. I just think it’s so important to know to believe in yourself. It’s okay to try again. If for some reason, it doesn’t work out, you can still make the situation better. Julie: Yep. I love that. We were talking a little bit about this too. The biggest indicator of birth trauma whether a parent has trauma related to their birth experience is not the mode of delivery or whether their birth went to plan or anything like that. It’s whether the parents felt safe and heard. It’s whether they felt like the provider heard them. They felt like they had a decision in what was happening to them. They felt like they were cared for and loved. That is the biggest indicator of whether or not a parent will have trauma related to their birth. You can have a VBAC and have birth trauma, and you can have a C-section and have trauma. You can have a CBAC and have trauma, but you can also have a very empowered vaginal birth, a very empowered VBAC, a very empowered CBAC, and a very empowered planned repeat Cesarean depending on how you perceive you were treated. Paige: Yeah. Dr. Chung came to me multiple times after to debrief. He said, “I carry so much guilt for the pain that you felt. I carry so much guilt. I’m so sorry.” I was like, “What?” I had forgotten about it because everything else, the postpartum care and the way that they treated me– their postpartum practices, we didn’t even touch on that, but everything was so lovely, so individualized, so beautiful, and I just told him, “Dr. Chung, let it go. It’s okay. You have loved and cared for me so well.” It’s so true, Julie, what you said. Meagan: Oh, all right, you guys. It’s hard to say goodbye. It’s hard to say good night because it’s starting to get late here. It’s daytime there. I just love you guys. I love you so much, and I’m so glad that we could get together while both of you are together in Korea and record this amazing story that I know will be definitely cherished for so many women. Yeah. It’s just amazing. Again, I’m so happy for you, Paige, and I love you and congratulations. Paige: Thank you so much. I love you both. I’m so thankful that we’ve crossed paths and just so thankful to be a part of this team. The way that you both advocate for women and advocate for change makes such a difference. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her.”How do you feel when you meet with your provider? Are you excited for your appointments? How does your body react? Are you tense or calm and relaxed? Jessica’s first birth began with an induction that she consented to but didn’t really want. Her waters were artificially broken, and her baby just was not in a great position. After over 4 hours of pushing and multiple vacuum attempts, Jessica consented to a Cesarean. Listen to Jessica’s VBAC story to find out what she did when she realized at 37 weeks that her provider was NOT actually VBAC-supportive.Sometimes difficult situations actually work out even better than we hoped!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Jessica, to the show. I am so excited that you are here and excited to hear your stories and actually talk a little bit more about what you do. Do you do it for a living, or is this just your passion project or whatever they call it? Is it your side job?Jessica: It’s on the side. It’s volunteer. My main job is a stay-at-home mom right now. Meagan: Yes. You’re homeschooling, right? Jessica: I am. Meagan: Oh my gosh. One of my best friends homeschools. I just praise you guys. Homeschooling is legit. It is very hard. That seems so hard. Jessica: It’s definitely a lifestyle. It’s different. It’s not for everybody, but it’s definitely for us. My daughter is only 5 so we are just getting used to it. Meagan: So Kindergarten?Jessica: She just turned 5 a couple of weeks ago, so we are technically doing 4-K right now. We are just getting into it. I’m still wondering every day, “Am I doing everything I should be?” I know as it goes on, I will get more comfortable and confident with it. Meagan: Yes, you will. That’s what I’ve seen with my friend. She was like, “This is what feels right. This is what we are going to do.” It took a little bit of a learning curve, then each kid added in, but she kills it. Yes, you are just a stay-at-home mom, but a full-time teacher. Holy cow. That’s amazing. Then yeah, you are doing La Leche League. Jessica: Yes. I have been a leader now for 2.5 years, just over that. I became certified. I think it was on my due date. I was trying to get everything done before my toddler was born. It’s been going really great. I really like it. Meagan: Yes. Tell us more about it because when I was– this was in 2014– pregnant with my second daughter. That’s when I heard about La Leche League. Tell us more about it and why someone would want to find their local leader, and then what all the benefits are and how to find them. Jessica: Sure. I first heard about La Leche League when my oldest was maybe about 9 months, so right away in my breastfeeding journey, I had no idea about it. I wish I had because it would have been great to have a community of support. I started feeling really passionate about breastfeeding and knew I wanted to help other moms with it because it can feel really isolating, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic. I started researching ways that moms can help other moms with breastfeeding because I had no other background in it. I’m not a nurse. I didn’t work in the labor world. I just stumbled upon it, and I lived in Madison at the time. I saw that Madison had a chapter. They weren’t doing meetings at the time because everything was virtual. But I just reached out, and I said, “I want to be a leader. Tell me what I need to do.” They emailed me back, and I got in touch with another local leader there who had been there for a while. She was surprised. She was like, “You want to be a leader, but you don’t even know what we do. You’ve never been to a meeting.” I just said, “Yes. That is what I want to do.” It was kind of a long process to become a leader because everything was virtual. They didn’t know how to go about that. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: So it took a little bit of a long time to become accredited as a leader. Meagan: Does it now or is it in person? Did it stay virtual? For someone who may want to?Jessica: I think everything is back to in-person. At least where I live now, Madison I know is back to in-person now too. Everything is probably running a little bit more smoothly now in terms of if you are interested in becoming a leader. Basically what leaders do is that we get some training within La Leche League, but we are your cheerleaders. We are here to support you. We are the middle ground between if we need to refer you somewhere for some additional help if it’s beyond our scope of practice of basic breastfeeding positioning, latching, or if you have questions of, “My baby is doing this. Is it normal?” That’s what we do. We have support groups every month for anybody to really join. Meagan: Awesome. Jessica: It’s fun. Meagan: Where can someone find it if they’re wanting to learn more? When it comes to breastfeeding, it sounds weird because you don’t have your baby yet, so why are we talking about breastfeeding? Why are we thinking about it? But I really believe that connecting before we have our babies with an IBCLC or a La Leche group is so important before you have your baby. If someone is looking, where can they find information or try to search for a chapter in their area? Jessica: You can just look up your state La Leche League. There should be a website that has all of the local chapters. They are all over the world, so you should be able to find somebody near you. Even if there’s not one near you, you can contact anybody. Let’s say they are 2 hours away. You can still call or text or email. They’ll usually, if you want to do something more in person, you can do some type of Zoom meeting. You can definitely find anybody to talk to. You’re right. It’s really important to get support before you even start breastfeeding if you know that’s something you want to do. I always say that breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn’t always come naturally. You don’t know what to do in the beginning unless you talk to somebody. Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to have the website linked in the show notes too, so if anyone is wanting to go search, definitely go check it out. Okay, now we are going to give a little teaser of what your episode is going to be about today. So, with your C-section, give us a little teaser of what your C-section was for. Jessica: So, my first birth went really smoothly and my pregnancy. I really liked my doctor. I really liked the hospital. It was a group of OBs of all women. I met with each of them. I really liked all of them, to be honest with you. They were all very supportive of whatever you wanted to do.Meagan: Which is awesome. Jessica: Yes, it is. I knew I wanted to have a vaginal birth. That was all I really knew, but I was also really young, I think. I was 23 for most of my pregnancy. I didn’t really educate myself beyond my doctor’s appointments. I trusted them to pretty much tell me what I needed to know, and that was it. That was my bad. Meagan: Yeah. Hey, listen. That is something I can relate to so much. I was also in my young 20s and just went in. Whatever they said, or whatever my app said, is what happened. I think that’s a little tip right there that says, “Let’s not do that.” Let’s not do that. Then for your VBAC, you had a bait and switch. I’m really excited, when we get to that point, to talk about bait and switch because it is something that happens. It can feel so good and then feel so wrong within minutes. It’s really frustrating, but I want to talk more about that in just a minute. We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to hurry and read that, then get into Jessica’s story. This reviewer is by diabeticmamawarrior. It says, “A podcast to educate the mind, heal the heart, and strengthen the soul.” It says, “Hi. I am writing this podcast from Seattle. We are currently pregnant with my second baby due in March of 2022.” This was a little bit ago. It says, “My first son was born at 28 weeks via classical Cesarean due to severe IUGR.” For anyone who doesn’t know IUGR, that is intrauterine growth restriction.“--and after hearing I would never be able to VBAC, I decided to do as much educated research as I could and to find my options was truly needed. I am also a Type 1 Diabetic and have successfully found an amazing midwife who not only feels comfortable and confident assisting in care through my pregnancy with my diabetes, but also with my special scar, and we are aiming for a successful VBAC. I am also receiving concurrent care with an OB/GYN as well to make sure appropriate monitoring of baby looks good throughout pregnancy. Listening to this podcast was one of the first resources I found, and it was a total GAME CHANGER.” It says, “Thank you, beautiful women, who bravely and shamelessly share your stories so that other women can also feel confident in making empowered decisions for their baby and their body. I am soon to join the legacy of women who have fearlessly VBAC’d happy and healthy babies. Much love, Ellen”. Meagan: Wow. What a beautiful review. Jessica: That was powerful. Meagan: Yes. What a beautiful review. That was a couple of years ago, so Ellen, if you are still listening, please reach out to us and let us know how things went. Okay, girl. It is your turn. It is your turn to share, just like what Ellen was saying, your beautiful stories, and empower other Women of Strength all over the world. Jessica: That review just reminded me that a long time ago, I reviewed the podcast, and you read it on one of the episodes. Meagan: Did we?Jessica: We did. I remember thinking, “This is so cool. I wonder if I could be on someday.” I’m sure you hear this all the time, but it’s very surreal being here knowing I listened to this podcast to help me heal. I’m just super excited to share my story. Meagan: I am so glad that you are here, and I’m so glad that we were able to read your review. We love reading reviews. It is so fun when we can hear the review, hear the journey, and then now here it is hearing the stories. Jessica: Yes. Meagan: Yes. Okay, well I’d love to turn the time over to you. Jessica: Like I said, I was introducing my story with my first. I just clicked through a birth course breastfeeding course that the hospital provided for me. I clicked through it to get it done and to check it off my list. Meagan: Birth education– yes, I did. Jessica: That’s exactly what I did. I’m prepared, whatever. I’m just going to go into this, and everything will happen like it’s supposed to. Mentally, everything was going well in my pregnancy. I wasn’t super eager to give birth. I wanted to wait to go into labor on my own. I think what started to bother me or what made me a little bit more antsy was when I was 37 weeks. I agreed to have my cervix checked for dilation, and I was 3 centimeters already. I was so excited, and the doctor said, “I don’t even think you’re going to make it to your due date,” which made me think, “Wow. I’m going to have this baby in the next 2 weeks. I’m not even going to make it to my due date. This is so exciting.” If any of your doctors ever tell you that, don’t let it get into your head because that doesn’t mean anything if you are dilated. I was 3 centimeters continuously. Meagan: Yeah. You can walk around at 6 centimeters, not even kidding you. My sister-in-law was at 6 centimeters for weeks, and nothing was happening. She was just at 6 centimeters. It can happen when you are just walking around. Try not to let them get into your head, or to get nervous when you’re like, “I could have a baby at any second.” It gets in our heads, and then when we don’t have a baby, it’s infuriating and defeating. Jessica: That is pretty much what happened. When I got to my 39-week appointment, I was still 3 centimeters. I just expressed how I was frustrated. I was tired of being pregnant. My doctor said, “Well, let’s set up your induction.” I had never even thought of being induced at that point. It was never mentioned. It never crossed my mind. It sounded so intriguing at that moment to just get this over with. I don’t want to be pregnant anymore. My sisters had been induced, and they had a good experience. It will go the same for me. Everything in my head was telling me, “Don’t do this. You know you don’t want this,” but I did it anyway because I had it in my mind that I should have had my baby already anyway based on what they told me a couple of weeks ago, so it would go so smoothly. She said, “You are a great candidate. You are already 3 centimeters.” We scheduled it. I think it was that Friday I went. It was Monday, on Labor Day, that we had my induction scheduled for. I didn’t have a lot of time to even process that. Meagan: Yeah. Did they say how they wanted to do it, or did they just say, “Come in. Have a baby”?Jessica: They briefly told me that they would start with Pitocin and see how my body responded to that. They would probably break my water which is exactly how it happened anyway. Meagan: Yeah.Jessica: Yeah.They started me with Pitocin at 3:00 PM. They kept increasing it, then by 6:00 PM, my body was just not responding to it. I didn’t feel anything. The doctor who was on call wasn’t my normal doctor, but I saw her a couple of times. I was comfortable with her. She came in and said, “Well, we could break your water. Is that what you want to do?” I said, “Sure. If that’s what you think we need to do, let’s do it.” Meagan: Yeah, I’m here to have a baby. What’s going to get me there?Jessica: Yeah. She was head down, so I thought, “What could go wrong? She’s already head down.” I didn’t know at the time that just because she was head down doesn’t mean she’s in a great position. She wasn’t. She was– what do they call it?Meagan: Posterior? Jessica: ROT. Meagan: Right occiput transverse. Okay, so looking to the side. Sometimes, when we say transverse, a lot of people think the body is transverse which is a transverse lie, but ROT, LOT, left or right occiput transverse, means the baby’s head is looking to the side, and sometimes, that can delay labor or cause irregular patterns because our baby is just not quite rotated around or tucked. They are looking to the side. Jessica: Right. That was pretty much what the obstacle was because when they broke my water, she engaged that way, so her head never was able to turn properly which we didn’t know yet. I feel like the doctors could have known that because aren’t they supposed to be able to feel and know maybe a little bit of where they are? Meagan: Yeah. So providers can. They can internally, and it depends on how far dilated you are. If you were still 3 centimeters, probably not as well, but at 3 centimeters AROM, where we are artificially breaking it, that’s not ideal. Usually, the baby is at a higher station at that point too. I call it opening the floodgates. We get what we get however that baby decides to come down, especially if baby is higher up and not well-applied to the cervix.If baby is looking transverse and hasn’t been able to rotate right during labor, then they come down like that, and then we have a further obstacle to navigate because we’ve got to move baby’s head. I will say that sometimes a baby might be looking transverse and mainly through pushing, a provider can sometimes rotate a baby’s head internally vaginally, but you have to be fully dilated and things like that. Can they feel through the bag of waters? If they can feel a good head, yes. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can’t, but again, there are all of these things that as a doula anyway, I help my clients run through a checklist if they are going to choose to break their water. Sometimes within your situation, I’d be like, “Maybe let’s wait.” But their view was, “Let’s get labor going. We are starting Pitocin. The body’s not responding,” which we know is a number-one sign that the body isn’t ready. Sometimes we still can break water with better head application and with the water gone, it can speed labor up. That’s where their mind was. Their mind probably wasn’t, what position is this baby in? Where is this baby at? What station is this baby at? It’s like, let’s get this baby’s head applied to the cervix. Jessica: Yes. I mean, it did work. As soon as my water broke, I immediately when into active labor. The Pitocin contractions were very awful. I felt them immediately because not only did my body start going into labor, but then the Pitocin also was making it worse. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Jessica: So I begged for an epidural right away even though I knew that’s not what I wanted. I didn’t do a lot of preparing for labor, but I know I didn’t want an epidural right away. I remember the very sweet nurse I had saying, “Do you want me to run the bath for you?” I said, “Are you crazy? That is not what I need right now.” Meagan: She’s like, “I’m trying to help you with your birth preferences.” J: I know. She was so nice. I apologized to her after later on when I saw her. That was the head space I was in. I just needed that pain to be gone. They ended up turning the Pitocin off eventually because my body just did what it needed to do on its own. Meagan: Good. Jessica: I didn’t get much rest after that. I couldn’t really sleep. I was too excited. But it wasn’t very long until I was ready to push after that. I think at about 7:00 PM, I got the epidural, and at midnight, I was ready to push. I kept trying and trying. 4.5 hours went by until she was just not coming over. I don’t know if it was my pelvic bone or something. That’s when we knew she was not going to turn. They suggested that we try the vacuum. I didn’t know what that was. That was very traumatic because the lights were bright. Everyone was in there. I remember my doctor saying, “Okay, we have one more attempt with this vacuum, and that’s our last attempt.” Of course, it didn’t work because in my mind, I knew it was my last chance. It was not going to work, and it didn’t. I was really upset after that. I remember crying saying, “I don’t want a C-section.” I was really afraid of it. But, that is just what we had to do to get her out at that point after attempting the vacuum. I remember being wheeled down to the OR and just being so tired and not knowing how I was going to take care of a newborn after having surgery and being so tired. I had been up for 24 hours. The C-section went fine. I was out of it though. I was passing out here and there just being so tired. They had to tell me to actually look up. “Your baby’s here. Look up.” I remember opening up my eyes going, “What?” I was forgetting what I was doing. Meagan: Out of it. Jessica: Yeah. I was very much out of it. But after that in the hospital, I wasn’t too upset about having a C-section. I was just so excited about having my baby. It really didn’t hit me until we were on the way home from the hospital. I started crying and was so upset. I felt like my experience was stolen from me because I felt like  I was so mad at my doctor for bringing up an induction at that point knowing if she didn’t, I would have never asked for one anyway. I had a lot of regrets about everything. In those couple of weeks after having her, your hormones are very up and down anyway. One moment, I would be fine. One moment, I would be really, really upset crying about it. I wanted to redo her birth so badly that it almost made me want another baby. “If we just have another kid, we can try again,” even though I had this 3-week-old next to me. Meagan: Yeah. Jessica: I was not thinking very clearly. Meagan: You were craving a different experience. That’s just part of your processing. Jessica: Yes. And looking back, I wonder if I was struggling with some PTSD because I would lie there at night not being able to sleep, and I would suddenly smell when they were cauterizing the wound. I would suddenly smell that again and think I was back in the OR. It wasn’t very fun. Meagan: Yeah. It’s weird how sometimes the experience can hit you in all different stages and in different ways, but right after, you’re like, “No. No, no, no. I need something different. Let’s have another baby right now. Let’s do this.” So once you did become ready to have another baby, what did that look like? What did that prep look like? Did you switch doctors? You liked your whole practice. How did that look for you?Jessica: Well, we moved. I knew I had to find another doctor. I would have anyway in Madison. I would have gone with a group of midwives that somebody I knew had a good experience with, and after listening to the podcast, I wanted a midwife. But unfortunately, where we moved, we live in Green Bay now. I was so limited on which provider I could go with. In one hospital, one group, that was all I could do locally. I couldn’t go with the hospital that everybody was recommending or the midwives that everybody was recommending for a VBAC. Meagan: Why couldn’t you go there?Jessica: My insurance was very limited. It still is. We can only go to this one hospital and one facility for doctors. Meagan: Okay, so it was insurance restrictions. Yeah, not necessarily a lack of support in your area. It just was insurance which is another conversation for a later date. Stop restricting everybody. Jessica: I was very surprised because when we were in Madison, I could go wherever I wanted and see whoever I wanted. I ended up just choosing somebody. I liked her. She was initially very supportive of having a VBAC. I had mentioned it in my very first appointment that this was what I want. She said, “Oh, I’m so excited for you. This is going to be great.” I even mentioned that I was still breastfeeding my daughter when I was pregnant. They just seemed very supportive of all things natural and all things birth. Meagan: Everything. Jessica: Yeah. There were no issues whatsoever. I had already hired my doula when I was 6 weeks pregnant. I had already talked to them before I had even saw my doctor. I told them about how I was really limited and this was where I had to go, but I felt very supported knowing I had a doula and knowing I had somebody on my side It didn’t really bother me at the time that I just had to pick whatever doctor I could. This was also a practice where the doctor I had wasn’t going to be probably who I would give birth with. That also didn’t bother me because I thought, “I have a doula. I have support. I know after listening to this podcast what I need to do to defend myself if that time were to come.” Meagan: Advocate for yourself, yeah. You felt more armed. Jessica: I did. I really did. I ended up seeing a chiropractor as well which was very helpful throughout my pregnancy. I loved going to the chiropractor. Not only did it help get her in a good position, but I also just didn’t really feel body aches as much as I did, so there were a couple of benefits to going there. I definitely recommend a chiropractor. Meagan: I agree. I didn’t go until my VBAC baby. I started going at 18 weeks, and I’m like, “Why didn’t I do this with the other babies?” It was just amazing. Jessica: Yeah. It really is. But my doctor’s appointments this time were very different. They were very rushed. They felt robotic. “How are you feeling? Great. Let’s get the heartbeat. Any questions? No.” I really kept my questions for my doulas anyway because I really trusted them. I don’t know. I didn’t feel like I had many questions anyway because I knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted to show up to the hospital basically ready to push. One of the red flags, I will say, that looking back now with this provider that I had initially is that she never asked for any type of birth plan. She knew I wanted a VBAC, and I thought it was a good thing that she wasn’t really asking details. I felt like, “Oh, she’s letting me do my thing.” But looking back, I think it was just because she knew that’s not what was going to happen. She knew. Meagan: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. We’ve had providers who have told people here in Utah. The client will say, “Hey, I really want to talk about my birth preferences.” The provider will say, “You’re really early. We don’t need to talk about that right now. We could talk about that later.” Or, “Hey, I was thinking I want to talk about this. Can we talk about that?” “No, not today. It’s fine. Whatever you want.” Then it comes, and we’ll hear more about your experience. I’m sure it will relate to a lot of people’s bait-and-switch stories. Jessica: Yeah. They sound so supportive in the moment, and then it’s not looking back. It continued on through my whole pregnancy. Even when I was 35 weeks, she suggested a cervical dilation check. I denied it at that point. I thought it was too early. 35 weeks is very early. Meagan: 35 weeks? Yeah. Jessica: I’m really glad that I stood up for myself and said no, because I was having one of those moments of, do I just do it anyway? I said no, and she was very fine with it. She said, “That’s fine. You don’t have to if you don’t want to. We don’t have to.” I also thought that was a good sign. Meagan: You’re like, “Yes. If we don’t have to, why are we suggesting it in the first place?” But I can also see where you’re like, “Well, sweet. She’s respecting my wishes. I didn’t want to. She’s saying, ‘Okay’.” Jessica: Exactly. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it at my next appointment because my curiosity got the best of me. I knew that it wasn’t important for me to be dilated, but I was trying to compare it to my last pregnancy. At 37 weeks, I was 3 centimeters with my first. I wonder if I’m going to have a different experience this time. Let’s see where we’re at. I was at 0. I just thought, “That’s totally normal. I have a lot of time left.” Her demeanor changed very much. It was like at my appointments before, she was a different person now. Meagan: Oh. Jessica: She said, “Well, if we’re not showing any signs of labor by 40 weeks, we need to schedule your C-section.” Meagan: Oh no. Jessica: She must have noticed I was surprised. I said, “But I don’t want a C-section. Did you not remember that I’m going to have a VBAC?” She said, “Well, you don’t want to risk your baby’s life.” Meagan: Bleh. Barf. No. Jessica: Yes. Yes. I knew that was just a scare tactic. I luckily was not phased by it. I was educated. I mentioned something along the lines of, “Well, wouldn’t we try to induce me before we jump ahead to the C-section? There’s no medical need.” My pregnancies were so boring. There was nothing that would indicate anything, not even an induction, but I thought, “Why not even just mention that before a C-section?” She said something like, “There are too many risks involved.” That was the end of the conversation on her end. She pretty much wrapped it up and said, “It’s pretty slippery out there. Be careful,” and walked out. Yeah. The conversation was over. In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her. I went back to the parking lot. I was crying. I texted my doulas right away what happened. I said, “I need to figure something out very quickly. I’m 37 weeks. I know I can’t go back to her. Can you please help me figure something out?” They were so, so extremely helpful with helping me figure out my options. I thought that at this point– in the beginning of my pregnancy, I knew, “I’ll just stand up for myself. I know what I want,” but when you are very big and pregnant, and you are very vulnerable, you don’t want to do all of that arguing. You just want somebody who is going to support you. I just knew I couldn’t go back to her. I didn’t have the energy to try to defend myself or advocate for myself. I just needed somebody who was already going to support my decisions. They encouraged me to look a little bit further out of Green Bay which I didn’t initially want to do. I wanted the hospital to be close. I had a 2-year-old. I didn’t want to be far away from her. But knowing I had limited options, I looked a little bit farther out. I texted them, “Hey, there is this doctor who I can go to in Neenah. It’s pretty far. I said her name. I don’t know if I’m supposed to say doctors’ names. Meagan: You can. Yeah. You can. People will actually love it so they can go find support themselves. Jessica: Yeah. I said, “There is this doctor, Dr. Swift, who is down in Neenah. That’s the only one who is really popping up on my insurance who I can go to.” They immediately texted back, “You need to go see her. She’s amazing.” My doula had actually had her VBAC with Dr. Swift. They were like, “You need to go see her. This your other option.” Meagan: Oh, Sara Swift is on our list of providers. Jessica: She is. She’s amazing. Meagan: She is. Okay, so you’re like, “I’ve got this doctor’s name.” Jessica: I called them to make myself an appointment, and I wasn’t able to get in until the following Friday. It would have been after I was 38 weeks. I told doula– Meagan: That’s when you had your last baby, right?Jessica: No, actually my last baby was at 39 weeks, but I didn’t know what was going to happen. I told them, and my doula was actually personal friends with her. She said, “No, that’s not going to work. I’m going to text her, and I’m going to get you in sooner.” I think it was a Wednesday at that time. I was able to go see her Friday. Yeah. Meagan: A week earlier than you would have been able to. Jessica: Yeah. I helped me to feel more relieved knowing that if I had gone into labor before that next appointment, I would have known where to go. I would have had a doctor established. I was very, very relieved to see her. It was such a different experience than my other doctors. I had to bring my two-year-old with me, and at that point, she was getting antsy, so Dr. Swift actually sat on the ground with my daughter and was coloring with her while we were talking to keep her busy. I just remember thinking, “There’s no other doctor out there who would do this for a very pregnant patient.” It felt very much like a conversation between friends. It didn’t feel like a robotic type of conversation I had with my previous doctor. She very much upfront said to me, “Our hospital has VBAC policies. Here they are. You can deny anything you want. They’re not going to allow you to eat food, but if you say you want to eat food, you can eat. They’re going to want continuous fetal monitoring, but if that’s not what you want, tell them what you want.” It felt like she just was supportive of what I wanted to do. She said something along the lines of, “I’m going to trust you and your body to make the decisions that you need to, but also know that if I need to step in, trust that I’m going to do what I need to.” It felt so mutual there. I was so excited to go back and see her every week. I’m actually kind of mad that I waited that long to see her. Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm. I’m sure you felt like you were breathing in a whole different way. Jessica: I was. I felt very excited. The drive was longer, but it didn’t even matter at that point. I went from a 15-minute drive to 45 and it didn’t feel like there was any difference. It was all worth it. Meagan: I agree. It’s sometimes daunting with that drive or the time, but you guys, it’s so worth it. If you can make it work, make it work. I’m so glad. Okay, yeah. So you found this provider. Everything was feeling good. Jessica: It was feeling great. I actually ended up going past my due date. Meagan: Okay. Jessica: I was feeling a little bit– not defeated– I wanted to make it to my due date because I wanted to make it there with my first. I was excited when I got to my due date, and then I thought, “Okay, when is this actually going to happen? I’ve got a two-year-old.” My in-laws were coming up to watch her when we were going to the hospital. They live 2.5 hours away. I was starting to worry about, how is this all going to work out? But it really did. I felt my very first contraction two days after my due date. It was a Friday night at 6:30. We were getting my daughter ready for bed, and I felt that first contraction. I knew it was different than Braxton Hicks. I just knew, but I don’t even know to say if that’s when my labor started because that continued all throughout the weekend every 15 minutes. It was not a fun weekend. I kept thinking things were going to pick up, and then they would die down. Meagan: Prodromal labor maybe. Jessica: Yeah, I think so. At one point, I had my doula come over in the middle of the night. I didn’t know when to go to the hospital. I didn’t know if it was time or whatever. She came to my house in the middle of the night just to help me with the Miles Circuit and just the different position changes I could do. I believe that was on that Friday night that I started labor. I was also able to get into the chiropractor that weekend. They were closed, but again, my doula was very close friends with the chiropractor and texted, “Hey, Jessica could really use an adjustment. She’s not in labor, but it’s not progressing. Can you help her?” I went to go see them on Saturday and on Sunday just to get things moving. She was in a really great position. Everybody could feel that she was just in the perfect position. It was just that these contractions could not get closer together no matter what I tried. Something told me, “Hey, you need your water broken for this to progress,” because I couldn’t do it anymore mentally or physically. I was exhausted. I didn’t want to initially because I knew that’s what prevented me from having the birth that I wanted in the first place with my first experience, but something also told me, “Hey, you need to go do this.” My intuition was super strong in those moments where I knew. My intuition was strong enough to switch doctors that late in my pregnancy. There wasn’t another option. This time also, my intuition told me, “You have to go in, and they have to break your water.” I knew Dr. Swift would be supportive of that because she was supporting any type of birth plan I really wanted. She told me at any point, I could be induced, but that she wouldn’t bring it up again. It was my decision. On Sunday night after we got my daughter to bed, we drove to the hospital. We let them know we were coming. Our doula met us there, and we just told them our plans. Dr. Swift, I remember, said, “Well, if I break your water now, you’re so exhausted from the whole weekend. Do you want to try sleeping for a little bit and we will do it in the morning?” I said, “I can’t sleep. I’m having these contractions every 15 minutes.” It was really funny. She said, “Well if you want to sleep, I’ll give you something to help you sleep.” If anybody has ever met her or knows her, she’s got a great personality. It was just funny in that moment. It’s what I needed in that moment to have a good laugh. I was like, “Yes. Give me anything I need right now to rest just a little bit before the morning.” In the morning, she came back in around 8:00 or 8:30. I don’t remember what time it was. She said, “Yep. Let’s do this.” They double-checked me again to make sure she was in a great position. At that point, I was actually 4 centimeters. I forgot to bring that up. Meagan: Yay, okay. Great. Jessica: Yes, so those contractions I was experiencing over the weekend were productive. I felt better about that. I didn’t want to break my water with being one of two centimeters. I felt good. Again, my intuition was telling me, “You need to do this.” Yeah. They did, and once again, it immediately put me into active labor. My doula was helping me with counterpressure, then they ended up running a bath for me which was very helpful. I was skeptical. I did not think that was going to work. When they were filling it, I remember thinking, “This is a waste of my time. This is not going to work,” but it was very helpful. At one point in the bath, I just remember feeling, “Okay, now I have to get out and I have to start moving around.” As soon as I got up, I just remember feeling things intensify. I got that feeling in my head like, “I can’t do this anymore.” I knew that at that point, it was getting close because of that feeling of, “I can’t do this anymore.” Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. Jessica: I had just a moment of weakness and I said, “I want an epidural right now.” Even though I knew in my mind that it was too late, I couldn’t help but ask them for that epidural. Thankfully, my doula knew that’s not what I wanted, so she helped prolong that process. She said, “Well, why don’t we start with a bag of fluids and we’ll see how it goes from there? We can ask them, but they might be busy.” That’s exactly what I needed. I knew that’s not what I wanted. Meagan: She knew that, and she knew how to advocate for you, and she knew you well enough what you needed to prolong it. Jessica: Yes. I’m very thankful for that because she could have said, “All right, let’s get it right now.” But she knew and I had made it very clear that was not what I wanted to do. We started with a bag of fluids, and at that point, I could feel my body start to push itself. This was about 3 hours after my water was broken. It was a very quick process from then until that moment. While I was pushing, the anesthesiologist did come in the room. I remember the anesthesiologist did come in the room, and I remember he said something like, “Who’s ready for the epidural?” My doctor said, “No, we’re having a baby. Get out.” He came in in the middle of me pushing, and I feel like I scared every other mom there with how loud I was, but I couldn’t help it. Meagan: Sometimes you just have to roar your baby out. Listen, it’s okay.Jessica: I really did. I really did roar her out in 20 minutes. Meagan: Wow. Jessica: After that, I don’t remember feeling any other pain. The pressure was gone, and I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh. I did it. She’s here, and I get my skin-to-skin with her which I didn’t get the first time. I get to have this experience. I can’t believe I actually did it. Meagan: And you did. Jessica: I did. Meagan: You did it. Jessica: There is so much more than you just having that VBAC. Throughout the journey, you grew. You grew as an individual. You grew as a mom listening to your intuition. You really, really grew, and then to have that baby again placed on your chest, oh, how amazing and how redemptive. Meagan: It was so redemptive and healing. In that moment, I didn’t feel any type of way about my C-section anymore. I wasn’t upset about it. I really had a feeling that it happened for a reason because if it didn’t, I don’t think I would have tried to educate myself about birth. I would have probably done it a second time, an induction, if it went well the first time. I also don’t think I would have fought so hard the first time to breastfeed because I felt like I had to make it work. I didn’t get the birth I wanted, so I had to make this work at least. I personally think that my C-section happened for a reason the first time. In that moment, I remember feeling a wave of, “I’m not upset anymore. I got this experience.”Meagan: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I kind of had that same view to a point. I do feel a little grumpy with how my births went because knowing what I know now, I am realizing that they didn’t need to happen that way. I likely never needed a Cesarean ever. I just probably didn’t. But, it’s the same thing like you. I wouldn’t have focused so hard on this. I wouldn’t have done this. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be the birth doula that I am today. I would not be the podcaster today. I don’t think I would have ever started a podcast on any other topic because I’m so deeply passionate about this topic and birth and helping have better experiences, so I really hold onto those experiences and cherish them. It sounds weird because it wasn’t the birth we wanted, but it’s what brought us here today. Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I also wouldn’t be where I am today if I didn’t have my C-section. I don’t think I would have been interested in birth. I love it now. I think in the future, I would love to be a doula. I just recently took an exam to become a certified lactation consultant. I haven’t gotten my results back yet, but I don’t think I would have gone down that path yet either if I wouldn’t have had my C-section and fought so hard for breastfeeding to work. I felt like I found my passion within that circumstance that was very unfortunate, and it shouldn’t have happened, but it did. Meagan: But it did, and you’ve grown from it. We want to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. If this podcast is for VBAC moms, it’s just as much for first-time moms in my opinion because we obviously have an issue with the Cesarean rate. We do. It’s a serious issue. Jessica: Yeah, it is. Meagan: But with that said, I encourage you if you are listening, and maybe you haven’t been able to process your past experience yet, or you are fresh out of it, and it’s very thick, and it’s very heavy and dark because we know that can sometimes be that way, I hope and I encourage you to keep listening, to keep learning, and to keep growing, because that darkness will become light again. Those feelings– I don’t know about go away, but they will lift. I don’t know how to explain it. Jessica: You might feel different about it. You might feel different about it than you did originally. Meagan: Your perspective will change. It’s going to take time. It’s going to take processing. It’s going to take healing. It’s going to be finding the education, finding the right team, finding the right support system, but it is possible. It is really, really, really possible, and take Jessica and my word right now, because we really have been there. We really understand so many of the feelings. I know that we all process feelings differently, and we’re all in different places, especially depending on the types of births that we had. I know that there are way more traumatic experiences that happen out there, but this community is here for you.We love you. We are here to support you. Keep listening to the stories. Find the groups. Find the healing, and know that it is possible to step out of this space and to grow. It’s weird to think, but one day, you’re going to look back and say, “I might be grateful. I might be grateful that happened.” Yeah. Like I said, I’m not happy. I’m not happy it happened, but I’m going to cherish that. I’m going to try and flip it. I’ve made it a positive experience that it’s brought me to where I am today. It’s brought me to be in a place where I can share my story just like Jessica and all of the other Women of Strength before her to help women feel inspired and to avoid those future devastations and unfortunate situations. Jessica: Yeah. Don’t let anybody try to tell you not to feel a certain way about it because I’ve had plenty of people tell me, “But you’re healthy. But you have a healthy baby, you can try again next time.” I just said, “You don’t understand. You’re not in my position. I know there are people who do understand me.” Most of you who are listening will understand that yes, you have a healthy baby and you’re fine, but it was still not what you wanted. That experience is so personal. You want what you want. Meagan: You want what you want, and you’re not selfish for wanting it. You’re really not. I think that’s really important because sometimes I think we are made to feel that we are selfish for wanting a different experience especially out there in the world, a lot of people say, “Why would you want that? Why would you risk that? You are selfish. Just be grateful for what you have. Just be grateful that you do have your baby and that you and your baby are okay.” No. No. The answer is no. Last but not least, I really wanted to share a little bit more about the bait and switch and how to recognize that because you guys, it can be hard to recognize. I don’t ever believe that these providers are sneakily trying to fool us, but maybe they are. I don’t know. I’ll tell you, they do. They do fool us. I don’t know if that’s because our judgment is clouded or what, but I think it’s important to feel that inside. What does your heart do when your provider walks in? What do your hands do? Do they clam up? Do they clench? Do they freeze? What does your body do? Are your shoulders rising up? Are they relaxed? Does your face have a smile on it? Really tune into who your provider is making you be. Are they making you a tense ball, or are they making you relaxed and excited?I mean, really Jessica, the way you are talking about Dr. Swift, it sounds like she is amazing. She’s like, “Here. Here are the policies. I want you to know these. These are things that you are going to be up against. You might have to fight for intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You might have to fight for this and this, but hey. I’m here. I’m on your side. We have these policies, but I’m here. Use your voice.” That was just so amazing. Jessica: It was amazing. I’m sad that I’m not going to have another child because I don’t get to go see her for appointments then. I really wish I would have met her sooner. That’s the type of doctor your need is when you actually want to go see them. That’s a big difference. You’re not thinking ahead of your appointment, “Well, I wonder if there is anybody else.” Meagan: Okay, I love that you said that. Check in with yourself and see if you are excited to see your provider. That’s how I was. I would look forward. I would look at the calendar and be like, “Oh my gosh. I get to see my midwife this week. This is so exciting,” because I would remember the way that she made me feel when I would get there. She would embrace me with a hug. “How are you doing, genuinely? How are you doing? How are you feeling?” We would chat, and it was a conversation like you said, like two friends. It really should be that connection. I know sometimes, providers don’t have the actual time, but tune into how you are feeling about seeing your provider. Are you dreading it? Are you worried about what you’re going to say? Are you worried that you’re going to have to be educated and come at them and say, “Well, I don’t want this, and I don’t want that”? What are they making you feel? If they are making you feel those genuine warm fuzzies, lean into that. Jessica: You have a good doctor then. Meagan: If you are feeling tense and anxious, I don’t know. It’s never too late to switch. You were switching later on. You had a further drive. There were obstacles that you had to hurdle through, but it is worth it. It is so worth it. We have a provider list, everybody. If you are looking for a provider, go to our Instagram. Look at our bio. Click on it. The very first block is supportive providers. If you have a supportive provider that you want to share, I was literally going to put Dr. Swift on this because of your testimonial of her, but she’s already on it. Jessica: She was already on it too when I checked. Meagan: Yeah. If you have a supportive provider and you checked this list and they are not on it, guess what? We have made it so you can add it. Definitely add your provider because Women of Strength all over the world, literally all over the world, are looking for this type of support. Jessica: Absolutely. In case you’re wondering if my other doctor ever reached out to me, I never heard a single word from her ever again. I canceled all my remaining appointments. Nobody reached out to say, “Hey, we noticed that you’re not coming back. What’s going on?” Anything could have been wrong when you’re that pregnant and you just disappear. It was upsetting that nobody said, “What’s going on, Jessica?” I was ready to let them have it because I was wanting them to reach out to say, “Why are you not coming back?” But they never called ever. Meagan: A lot of us stay because we are so worried about how our provider will feel or we have been with our provider this long. They deserve for me to stay. No. Do what’s best for you. I love that you pointed that out so much. I just want to thank you again so much for sharing your journey with us and all of these amazing nuggets. I know that they are going to be loved.Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This just feels amazing to be able to share my story when I’ve heard so many on here before that were so helpful.Meagan: Yeah, and here you are. I love how full circle this always is, so thank you, again. Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands