The Human Risk Podcast

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing. 

Guest Bio
Dr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.

Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning
03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy
07:00 – What games are (and why they matter)
10:00 – Achievement vs striving play
13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games
16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity
18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules
22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems
25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals
29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement
32:00 – Quantification and loss of context
36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise
40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency
43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences
47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment
50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics
54:00 – Designing better scoring systems
58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point
01:02:00 – Choosing your own game
01:06:00 – Final reflections and closing

Relevant Links

Thi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/
His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584
The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975
Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social

We tend to assume that if we’re working hard, we’re working well. But what if that isn’t true?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Phil Dobson, author of The Brain Book and founder of Brain Workshops, about what he calls 'cognitive leadership': using neuroscience and psychology to help people sustain performance, think more clearly, and navigate uncertainty. Phil explains how a broken ankle led him from music and sales into hypnotherapy, neuroscience, and leadership development, and why he believes most of us are never properly taught how our brains actually work.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the difference between productivity and effectiveness, why attention may be our most valuable asset, and how modern working life often undermines flow, creativity, and good decision-making. We also discuss stress, workload, digital distraction, the limits of measurement, and what organisations get wrong when they try to manage people as if more time always equals more value.

Discover how leaders can create better conditions for thinking, resilience, creativity, and change; and why understanding the human brain matters far beyond the workplace.

Episode Summaruy
why most of us are taught far too little about how our brains work
Phil’s unusual route from musician to hypnotherapist to neuroscience-based leadership adviser
the difference between being productive and being effective
why self-employment sharpened Phil’s focus on impact rather than activity
how experimentation, iteration, and reflection shape better ways of working
the distinction between fun and fulfilment
flow states and why modern life makes them harder to access
the growing importance of attention in a world of distraction
why stress management has to include workload management, not just breathing techniques
how rest, breaks, and so-called “unproductive” time often drive insight and creativity
why measuring people too narrowly can damage performance
how understanding the brain helps leaders navigate change and uncertainty
why improving human decision-making matters not just for performance, but for reducing costly mistakes
AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: busyness vs effectiveness
02:00 — Phil’s journey into cognitive leadership
07:00 — Productivity vs effectiveness (and the 80/20 shift)
12:00 — Experimentation, habits, and fulfilment
17:00 — Flow, focus, and attention under pressure
22:00 — Attention as a critical (and under threat) asset
27:00 — Why knowing isn’t the same as doing
31:00 — Rethinking productivity: energy, creativity, and insight
36:00 — The neuroscience of better thinking (default mode network)
40:00 — Measurement, management, and leadership challenges
45:00 — Human performance beyond the workplace
50:00 — Human error, decision-making, and risk
55:00 — Evolving work: shorter weeks and smarter working
58:00 — Leading change with a brain-based approach
01:03:00 — Final reflections and closing

Relevant Links
Phil's website - https://phildobson.com/

Brain Workshops - https://brainworkshops.co.uk/

Phil on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brainworkshops/

The Brain Book - https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Book-Smarter-Concise-Advice/dp/1910649732

What lessons does a religious protest that led to an uprising  in 1549 have to do with human risk?

At first glance, not very much. It’s easy to see it as a distant historical event — something about religion, kings, and a very different world. But as my guest, Professor Mark Stoyle explains, the Western Rising of 1549 is far more than that. It’s a powerful example of what happens when authority imposes change without understanding how people will react. 

Episode Summary
This episode started on a train journey to Exeter, where I was due to give a talk. Looking for a local story to make my presentation more relevant, I stumbled across a battle that had taken place just outside the venue in 1549. The more I read, the clearer it became that this wasn’t just history, it was a case study in compliance, behaviour, and unintended consequences.

Guest Profile
Mark is a historian and leading expert on what he calls the Western Rising of 1549. In this conversation, we explore how sweeping religious changes imposed by those in power triggered resistance, how small incidents escalated into a major rebellion, and why identity, belief, and emotion played such a critical role. Along the way, we discuss how history is written (and biased), why changing language can provoke outrage rather than acceptance, and what this story reveals about leadership, risk, and human behaviour today.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: a compliance failure in 1549
01:00 – The train journey to Exeter
02:00 – Discovering the rebellion
04:00 – Why this is a human risk story
05:15 – Introducing Professor Mark Stoyle
07:30 – Setting the historical context
10:00 – Power, authority, and instability
13:30 – What triggered the rising
17:00 – Why language change caused outrage
22:00 – Early resistance and local incidents
25:00 – The tipping point: violence begins
29:00 – How the rebellion spreads
33:00 – The siege of Exeter
37:00 – How history is written by the victors
41:00 – Crushing the rebellion
45:00 – Cultural consequences and language loss
48:00 – Lessons for today
52:00 – Polarisation and modern parallels
57:00 – Final reflections In this episode we discuss

Key Topics
Why imposed change can trigger resistance
How small incidents escalate into major crises
The role of identity, belief, and emotion in decision-making
Why language and culture matter in compliance
How authority can misjudge human behaviour
The dangers of polarisation and “us vs them” thinking
Why compromise becomes impossible in extreme positions
How history is shaped by those who win
The unintended consequences of leadership decisions
What a 16th-century rebellion teaches us about modern risk
Guest Profile
Mark Stoyle is Professor of History at the University of Southampton. He specialises in Tudor rebellions, the English Civil War, and the history of witchcraft. Originally from Devon, his work on the Western Rising of 1549 draws on decades of research and a deep personal connection to the region where these events took place.

Links
The Western Rising of 1549, Mark's book - https://yalebooks.co.uk/book/9780300276886/the-western-rising-of-1549/

Mark's University of Southampton profile page - https://www.southampton.ac.uk/people/5wyxqy/professor-mark-stoyle

Mark's publisher profile: - https://www.worldturnedupsidedown.co.uk/team/mark-stoyle/

What exactly is a sign?  At first glance, that might sound like a strange question. Signs are everywhere: telling us where to go, what to do, what not to do, and sometimes what might happen if we ignore instructions. But as my guest, Jeffrey Ludlow Saentz explains, signs are much more than bits of information on walls or beside roads.

Episode Summary
Jeffrey is a signage designer who works on complex buildings and environments around the world — airports, offices, museums, and other places where helping people find their way really matters. He’s also the author of A Sign Is..., a fascinating book exploring the history, meaning, and cultural significance of the signs that shape our everyday behaviour.

In this conversation, we explore why good signage is often invisible, how buildings “speak” to us through wayfinding systems, and what signs reveal about power, trust, and human behaviour. Along the way we discuss hacked traffic signs, casino design, airport navigation, and why something as simple as an arrow carries centuries of history.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: why signs are more interesting than they first appear
03:00 – How Jeffrey became a signage designer
04:00 – The challenge of helping people navigate complex buildings
07:00 – What actually is a sign?
09:00 – Why “everything can be a sign”
11:00 – The power dynamics behind signage and authority
13:00 – How designers observe signage in the real world
14:30 – Cultural differences in wayfinding and navigation
19:30 – Why Jeffrey wrote A Sign Is..
22:00 – The fascinating history of fire safety signage
24:00 – Curiosity and the stories hidden behind everyday signs
27:00 – Hacked construction signs and unexpected messages
31:00 – Trust, authority, and information on signs
35:00 – Advertising, nudging, and attention
36:00 – Information overload and competing signals
39:00 – The learned language of signs and symbols
41:00 – Why good signage is “invisible” when it works
43:00 – Airports, trust, and wayfinding design
46:00 – How people become signage designers
47:30 – How casinos, airports, and museums use signs differently
50:00 – The psychology of navigation
54:00 – Why signage can’t work perfectly for everyone
57:00 – Why wayfinding is an art rather than a science
01:02:00 – Jeffrey’s book A Sign Is and where to find it
01:04:00 – What signs might look like in the future In this episode we discuss

Key Topics
Why signage is a form of behavioural communication
How buildings “talk” to people through wayfinding systems
The psychology of navigation and spatial awareness
Why good signage is invisible
How casinos deliberately make navigation harder
Why museums minimise signs while airports maximise them
The cultural differences in how places are navigated
What hacked traffic signs reveal about trust in authority
Why signs act as nudges that shape behaviour
The limits of signage when designing for large groups
How digital navigation may change our relationship with physical signs
About Jeffrey
Jeffrey Ludlow is a signage and wayfinding designer and founder of Point of Reference Studio, a design practice specialising in signage systems, environmental graphics, and branding for public environments. Trained as an architect, Jeffrey’s work sits at the intersection of architecture, graphic design, and behavioural psychology — helping people navigate complex spaces more intuitively. He is the author of A Sign Is, a book exploring the cultural, historical, and behavioural significance of the signs that surround us.

Links
Jeffrey's book 'A Sign Is...' - https://oroeditions.com/product/a-sign-is

Point of Reference, the Madrid-based studio Jeffrey founded - https://pointofreference.studio/

What Can a Cocktail Teach Us About Curiosity and Creativity? At first glance, documenting Negronis around the world might sound like a frivolous hobby. But could a simple cocktail become a vehicle for curiosity, experimentation and creative thinking?
 
On this episode, I speaks with geopolitical strategist Marc A Ross about an unusual passion project: ordering and documenting Negronis wherever he travels. What began as a casual habit has evolved into a magazine-style project called 50 Negronis, capturing cocktails from elegant bars to chaotic airport lounges. Along the way, the project has revealed something deeper about travel, culture and the value of experimentation.
 
But as the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear this episode isn’t really about cocktails. Instead it’s about how curiosity leads to discovery, why creative side projects matter, and how experimentation can enrich both our professional and personal lives.
 
Curiosity Starts With Small Experiments
Marc’s Negroni project began almost accidentally. While travelling frequently for his work as a geopolitical strategist, he started ordering Negronis and photographing them. What made the idea interesting wasn’t a search for the perfect drink.

Instead, Marc documented the entire experience — the great cocktails, the mediocre ones, and the truly terrible ones. That curiosity created a lens through which to experience the world differently. Bars became places for conversation, experimentation and discovery, and the project grew into a collection of stories from cities across the globe. 

Creativity Through Play
A key theme of the conversation is the importance of playfulness. Marc deliberately avoids treating the project too seriously. The photos are simple smartphone snapshots, the documentation is intentionally loose, and the goal isn’t perfection.

That approach mirrors how many creative projects evolve; by removing the pressure to produce something “definitive,” the project becomes an experiment. And in the process, it becomes easier to create, learn and iterate. 

Authenticity, Communication and Personality
We also explore how side projects can sharpen professional skills. Marc argues that communicators, leaders and even politicians should experiment creatively and share aspects of their personality. Authenticity matters. Whether it’s documenting cocktails, running unconventional events, or experimenting with new formats, people connect more with ideas that feel genuine. Sometimes the most powerful way to communicate is simply to follow an idea that genuinely interests you.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – A cocktail as a conversation starter
Introduction; why Negronis might seem like an unusual topic for a podcast about human behaviour and yet…

02:00 – Recording in Sundance, Utah
Marc describes the Brigadoon gathering and its focus on conversation rather than traditional conference formats.

04:00 – The origins of the Negroni
Marc explains the history of the cocktail and why it remains a classic drink.

07:00 – The “50 Negronis” project
A disappointing airport Negroni sparks the idea of documenting the drinks Marc encounters while travelling.

10:00 – Capturing cocktails around the world
Marc explains how he photographs the drinks and records the ingredients when possible.

13:00 – Cocktail culture and experimentation
They discuss how bartenders experiment with ingredients and create new variations.

18:00 – Why the details don’t matter
The project becomes less about recipes and more about stories, places and experiences.

22:00 – Learning through experimentation
Christian reflects on how creative side projects can help people learn and explore new ideas.

30:00 – Lessons for communicators and politicians
Marc explains why authenticity and personality matter in leadership.

37:00 – Staying curious and having fun
The conversation turns to persistence, creativity and the value of pursuing ideas simply because they’re interesting.

42:00 – Where to follow Marc’s work
Marc shares details about Brigadoon events and his geopolitical newsletter.

Links
Caracal Global, Marc’s consultancy and advisory firm - https://www.caracal.global/

Brigadoon, Marc’s series of lovingly curated events - https://www.brigadoon.live/

Marc on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcaross/

Marc’s previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/marc-ross-on-communication-strategy/ 

Sundance Mountain Resort - https://www.sundanceresort.com/