Disorder

It’s telling to hear NATO’s future is not “guaranteed” according to a former NATO boss. After a jaw-dropping US threat to take Greenland shocked the world. President Trump’s first year back in power is also overshadowing the United Nations' 80th milestone. Prompting calls to retool the world’s top diplomat. 

In this episode of Disorder, hosted by Mark Lobel, the former head of NATO tells Disorder we should make the United Nations Secretary-General the "chairman" of the Security Council. Brazil’s former Ambassador to the United Nations says the role should be a single mandate term of six or seven years, "to retain the willingness to displease certain sources of power”.

Recorded at a special UNA-UK event, George Robertson and Ambassador Antonio Patriota reveal how Donald Trump’s disorderly approach is causing a major re-think of organisations and leadership in the world. Speaking in the same building that ushered in the United Nations General Assembly in 1946, exactly 80 years ago this month. 

The Brazilian Ambassador to the UK didn't hold back ... 

On Venezuela: 

“I feel very uncomfortable as a South American to witness an intervention that is a flagrant violation of international law.” 

On Nigel Farage joining climate talks: 

“I don’t think (he's) very eager to engage on this topic” 

On presenting the Nobel Peace Prize to Trump: 

“As a South American, I felt embarrassed by this gesture, because I don’t think it enhances anybody’s dignity to do that.” 

Plus - George Robertson tips a British politician as the next big thing ... and it’s not who you expect!

Stay news of a special live event with Disorder and the UNA-UK for mega orderers, and to join our Mega Orderers Club and come along, and get ad-free listening, early release episodes, and bonus content, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: ⁠https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch⁠ 

To join our Mega Orderers Club in honour of Greg, for ad free listening and early release episodes, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

UNA UK website www.una.org.uk

UN official article summarising the event - https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/01/1166783

Gordon Brown’s call to action for democracies to reinvigorate the international order, highlighting the Attorney General’s speech at the event - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jan/20/donald-trump-greenland-world-plan-leadership

Devex video interviews on Insta - https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/01/1166783

Sky News - 'Is the US attacking the UN's principles?' (Interview with the President of the General Assembly) https://news.sky.com/video/is-the-us-attacking-the-uns-principles-13495782 

The Guardian - 'Guterres warns of ‘powerful forces’ undermining ‘global cooperation.’’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/17/antonio-guterres-warns-forces-undermining-global-cooperation-un-80th-anniversary-secretary-general-multilateralism-international-law 

NPR - 'United Nations leaders bemoan global turmoil as the General Assembly turns 80.’ https://www.npr.org/2026/01/18/nx-s1-5678366/united-nations-general-assembly-80-london#:~:text=LONDON — Just over 80 years,the importance of international cooperation. 

Full speech by SG: https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1u/k1uo45t198
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This episode is dedicated to Disorder’s only ‘Founding Sponsor’, Greg Merriman, who passed away from Pancreatic Cancer last week. He was a software entrepreneur, a wine lover, and an American-Anglophile. To Jason’s mind he was a classic example of that old time Midwestern decency, which the world is sorely lacking these days. He was a true Mega Orderer and will be sorely missed.

This week, Jane and Jason analyse the endgame scenerios of Trump’s sabre rattling over Greenland and what the protests in Iran might lead to. They sketch opportunities for how the Europeans could step up and lead at this moment – if only they chose to. And as they Order the Disorder, Jane discusses Donald Trump's disregard for international law and how we could try to make International Law Great Again.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad-free listening, like the true Mega Orderer Greg Merriman, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club in honour of Greg, for ad free listening and early release episodes, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

How Marco Rubio Went from “Little Marco” to Trump’s Foreign-Policy Enabler: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/01/19/marco-rubio-profile 

For More on Greenland: https://x.com/ilvestoomas/status/2011593795373318648?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/trump-greenland-risk-global-conflict/685616/ 
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To kick off the year, Disorder held our final live podcast recording at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), as part of our one-year partnership with the think tank. Hear Jason Pack in discussion with Disorder co-host Jane Kinninmont, RUSI Associate Fellow Arthur Snell, and Jonathan Eyal, Associate Director at RUSI. They discussed the rather disordering implications of Trump’s actions in Venezuela, whether it might embolden China and Russia to behave the same way in their ‘spheres of influence’, and whether Britain can continue to play a Mega Ordering convening role, as geopolitics are potentially realigning into a ‘might-makes-right’ and ‘spheres of influences’ phase.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get a full recording of the event including live listener questions, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get a full recording of the event including live listener questions, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join Jane at her event, UNGA at 80: From 1946 to Our Future https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/unga-at-80-from-1946-to-our-future-tickets-1975305412663?aff=oddtdtcreator

For more on RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/ 

And Jonathan Eyal’s great work: https://www.rusi.org/people/eyal 
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Smartphones have revolutionised warfare, and we are still learning exactly the implications of this. The extent of our full spectrum dependence on Wi-Fi and the internet is profound. Military organisations routinely rely on civilian infrastructure to operate digitally. Now, with AI accelerating the pace of change in tactics, strategy, and targets even further, what does that mean for war? And how civilians participate in it? And what nodes of connectivity can become enemy targets?

To find out, Jason is joined this week by Matthew Ford, author of ‘War in the Smartphone Age: Conflict, Connectivity and the Crises at Our Fingertips’. Brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, this episodes focuses on how technology, particularly smartphones and digital communication, has transformed military strategies and civilian involvement in conflicts. Jason and Matthew explore the topic looking at the case studies of: Hamas; the ongoing war in Ukraine; vulnerabilities in Britain and the West more generally; and the role of civilians in modern warfare. 

And as they Order the Disorder, they return to the oft-cited need for better information resilience and media literacy.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th: for details on the event https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

Get Matthew’s book https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/war-in-the-smartphone-age/ 

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder
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For this special partnership episode with Andrew Keen from KeenOn, Jason and Andrew discuss what Disorder we can expect in 2026. Jason crowns Mark Carney as 2025’s Mega Orderer-in-Chief and fears that even from the grave Epstein will be 2026’s Disorderer-in-Chief. The show ends with our looking ahead to the New Year with the Hebrew song, ‘Ba Shana HaBa’ah’ song by Yoav Oved. You can check out more of his operatic cantorial singing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolsTq5ZNNw 

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th: for details on the event https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

For more on KeenOn visit: https://www.youtube.com/@KeenOnShow 
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