#AmWriting

In this episode of #amwriting, Jennie continues this series of “Write Big” episodes in which she vulnerably shares her own process of turning the Write Big concepts into a book, thanking listeners and inviting them to become paid subscribers. In this tough installment, recorded after a Zoom call with her agent while sick, she explains they are ending submission after sending the proposal to 30 publishers; feedback was largely positive, but publishers felt the book would be hard to break out without a large platform, and there was nothing actionable to change.
Jennie feels sad about losing the chance for bookstore placement via a traditional deal, but emphasizes she does not feel rejected and believes strongly in the finished manuscript and her marketing plans. She plans to move forward independently, explore formats and special editions, and frames the moment as what “writing big” means: taking ownership, not playing small, and writing like it matters.
#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript
[00:00:00] Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here to introduce a series of episodes that I’m going to be doing. But before I do that, I just want to thank you for being a listener. I inherited this podcast from KJ, Jess, and Serena back in December, and didn’t really know how it was going to work with just me at the helm or what I was going to do to make it valuable to writers.
And I’ve been finding my way, and I’ve just been so grateful that you’re continuing to listen. I appreciate it so much. I have a lot of really cool things planned coming up, so I hope you’ll keep listening, and I also hope that if you’re getting something from it, that you consider becoming a paid subscriber.
That helps support me and the producer and assistants who help me put this together, and we would appreciate your support so much. Okay. So the reason that I wanted to introduce this upcoming series is that it’s a series of Write Big episodes that are about me and the project that I’m working on, and it feels a little vulnerable to be sharing in this way.
I’ve had some mentors and advisors [00:01:00] suggest that maybe I shouldn’t do this because I’m here on the #amwriting podcast as an authority. I’m the book coach who coaches the book coaches and who has coached a lot of writers, and I come at you from that place of expertise. But in these next episodes, I’m coming at you as a writer my own self, and I’m coming with some pretty raw material.
I debated whether or not I should share it at all, but I decided to go ahead. I think it’s the honest way to show that I’m here working on the Write Big issues right alongside you because every writer is. These are not just theoretical ideas. They’re ideas that we all have to wrestle with. It doesn’t matter that I’ve published 12 books or that I’ve coached hundreds of writers and thousands of book coaches.
What matters is that I want the book I’m writing to be great, and I want it to make an impact, and I want it to be authentically me, and that’s what writing big is all about. So the [00:02:00] project that you’re going to hear me talk about is trying to turn the Write Big concepts into a Write Big book. And this episode that you’re gonna hear first is a pretty tough one.
I want you to know that it all turns out just fine. I’m fine, and I’ll be sharing the journey of my bringing the Write Big book into the world with all of you as we go with some special opportunities to be inside the process with me and to help me make the book as good as it could be. This will all just be a small part of what I have planned for the #amwriting podcast, but I wanted to give you this context before you listen today, just so you know what this episode is all about and the next few ones that follow.
Okay, now let’s get to it.
This is a Write Big session where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today, I have a bad cold, as you can hear, but I just got off the Zoom with my agent, and I wanted to [00:03:00] capture this moment for all of you because I think it’s really important to capture it.
So even though it was a sad call and I feel bad, I wanted to record this right now. And, um, it was sad because we decided that our submission efforts are over and they didn’t work. My agent submitted to 30 publishers, and the overall feedback was amazing, as I shared in some earlier episodes. It was just incredible how many people know me, know my work how well the proposal landed with people, how seriously they considered it.
My agent did something that I’ve actually never seen before, which is that she had a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet, and she would share the feedback in the spreadsheet as it came in. So I have all of the feedback in this spreadsheet. I’m looking [00:04:00] at it right now. And so what my agent and I decided is that there was really nothing that we could do.
There was nothing that we could control. Nobody was saying, “Go out and get a whole bunch of new followers and come back to us.” Nobody was saying anything about a different content or concept. There was just a general feeling that it would be hard to break this book out. I’m not famous, and I don’t have a big following, and I can’t get that.
I can’t snap my fingers and, and make that a thing. There are a lot of books in this category from people that do have that. And so I just am at that disadvantage, and there’s, there’s nothing that we could do. So we decided that’s the end of the road. So what I wanted to capture, the reason I wanted to record this was, this is a book called [00:05:00] Write Big.
And writing big in my mind- is not about going for it. That’s not what it’s about. It might be, and when you write big, you might do that, and what I was doing in trying to get a traditional deal for this book was going for it, and I’m sad I didn’t get it. That’s the sadness. I’m sad I didn’t get it. I really wanted this book to be in bookstores.
I feel like it’s a book that would do really well in bookstores, and should be in bookstores. That was my primary goal for getting a traditional deal, because I’ve self-published the Blueprint books, and they sell very well, and they do very well. And the one publisher that we spoke to commented upon that, actually said, “You do so well.
What can we... What could we do that’s different from what you’re already doing?” So that is an [00:06:00] interesting part of the conversation. But I want it to be in bookstores, and it’s hard to be in bookstores, really nearly impossible with a book like this from self-publishing. So the sadness is that I won’t have that.
And but underneath all of that sadness and the disappointment that it didn’t work is a belief in what I’m doing. I have a finished manuscript. I have it out with two beta readers, and I’ll be talking about why I picked those two and what that process was and how the feedback from them has gone and what I’m doing with that feedback in later episodes.
But I know that this material is good. I know that it’s useful. I’m excited about this material. My proposal had some killer marketing plan in it that I’m really excited to pursue without a [00:07:00] publishing partner, a traditional publishing partner, and some of the things that I wanna pursue will be easier without a publishing partner because I’ll have control over the pricing and special offers and giveaways and things like that.
But I... the, this book is not... this, this news is not the end of this book by any stretch of the imagination. It’s just the end of this piece of what I wanted, and that’s the core belief, is that this, this idea is solid and sound, and I’m excited about it, and I wanna bring it into the world, and actually nothing is gonna stop me from doing that, and I feel a fierce, m- what is it?
Desire to do that. So I don’t feel like this is a setback. I don’t feel like it’s a referendum on what I wrote. [00:08:00] I don’t feel like it’s personal I don’t feel rejected. Again, I just feel sad because I had a, a dream or a vision of that, of that bookstore thing. But, you know, what does that represent? It...
What it means is that this book would get into writers’ hands, and it would get into writers’ hands in that way of, you know, someone wanders into a bookstore and they’re noodling around, and they are come upon that writer book reference shelf in which actually often several of my clients’ books sit. And which is kind of ironic.
One of, one of the re- uh, rejection letters actually referenced that they already have a book similar-ish to mine which is somebody that I, that I helped. So, and one of my coaches helped. So, yeah, it’s a little bitter- [00:09:00] bittersweet part of that there, for sure. But, you know, the ultimate goal is that writers get this, and writers use this, and writers make something from the content in this book, and that can happen whether they encounter that book in the bookstore or not.
So that is what is gonna happen. I will pursue this and move forward with this on my own. And, It, yeah, it feels, I’m just- I’m sort of closing my eyes and sitting here and trying to feel how I feel. I mean, I knew, I knew what was happening on this call. It wasn’t a surprise to me. It was, you know, we agreed to add the submission and to have this conversation today.
So I wasn’t surprised by the news. But, you know, having the call is, is final and the agent that I chose for this project is lovely and loves my work and did it- did all she could do. Um, I have no, I have no, um, [00:10:00] feelings or regrets about her role in this. And yeah, I feel a little, uh... What do I feel?
It’s, uh, it’s hard to know what you feel. Um, I feel a little, I guess vulnerable, uh, sharing, sharing this in what, um, will be a podcast, but I don’t know. I just, I’m out here trying to teach and to lead and to coach, and I’ve coached so many writers through this moment in different ways and different kinds of books over the years, and it’s part of the process.
I- I’ve been in the seat of helping someone through it many, many times and it it will be okay. I know it will be okay. And, um, we’re so lucky that we live in a time when the publishing decision is not the final decision. I have so much control and agency and choice, and maybe this is w- actually gonna be the best [00:11:00] possible for- thing for this book.
And I’m starting to think about, oh, maybe I’ll do a, a special kind of cover or a special hardback edition in addition to paper and e-book and audio. There’s so many things that I could do and I’m excited to, to do it. So I will take a, a beat and mourn, mourn the thing that I didn’t get that I wanted and move on.
And that is what I think writing big is all about. Again, it’s not going for it and, getting the big prize and that kind of energy. It’s, you know what? how can you stop playing small and write like it matters? How can you go big in terms of your ownership of this and taking responsibility of this and doing what you can to bring it to life?
And that’s always in our control. So that’s what I’m [00:12:00] gonna do, and I wanted to share that with you in the moment. So until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.


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In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar’s Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems.
They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.
#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.
Transcript
Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that’s gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.
And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we’re in a business mastermind together.
That’s how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar’s Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.
So it’s a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.
And so she’s gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.
Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I’ve been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.
Jennie: Yeah.
Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it’s, like, so- Look at us ... great that we’re doing this here today. Yes.
Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?
Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.
It has, like, we’re headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you’re a busy professor. So yeah.
Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it’s really mission based. Yeah. It’s, it’s [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.
Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.
Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.
But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That’s why the business is called Scholar’s Voice, ‘cause it’s about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.
Um, so [00:04:00] to me that’s my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it’s a very mission based, uh, business for me.
But it’s also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.
Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it’s, it’s writing in, in the real world.
Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you’ve honed this over so many years, i- and it’s designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it’ll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you’ve finished your blueprint, now what?
So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?
Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.
And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it’s like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you’re saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn’t happen.
And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn’t true because you’re also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.
Like there’s never a time where there’s like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that’s the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.
Jennie: Ah. And
Outro: they’ll be like, “No,
Cathy: no,
Outro: no,
Cathy: I
Outro: need-” Say that again.
Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I’m, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?
Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you’re not, then let’s just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that’s the other thing, it’s so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.
Uh, and also
Outro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.
Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people have
Outro: all kinds of ideas.
Cathy: And I’m like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can’t ... I’m thinking you’re not knowledge work for eight hours a day.
Like, your brain can’t do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn’t have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?
Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.
Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I’ll say, “Oh, I’m working so hard, and I’m so busy on it, and I’m spending all this time on it,” but really what I’m doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeah
rearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I’ll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it’s just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-
Cathy: Yeah ...
Jennie: the- it’s- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that time.”
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that’s why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you’re faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we’re always working on more than one project at once.
We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it’s submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you’re waiting to get editorial feedback on them.
All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you’re making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here’s my roadmap. Let me... You’re my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”
You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you’ll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.
Jennie: So I’m curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.
What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?
Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I’m, I’m gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I’ve tried it. I’ve tried to hold that time before, but I’ve never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I’ll just keep disappointing myself.”
Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can’t be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.
You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn’t possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.
Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that’s a That’s a situation that’s common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that’s the first thing that has to change.
Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.
Outro: That’s what it needs to be. That’s the level of honoring that we’re, that we’re talking about.
Jennie: I’m laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I’m looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we’re looking at video while we’re recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it’s hilarious that you mention that.
I’m like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]
Cathy: Listen, I don’t have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can’t get a freaking kid’s dentist appointment.
Like, I call and they’re like, “Yeah, we’re just all booked up.” I’m like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there’s a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That’s the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.
Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mm
book that I’m working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don’t really have any evidence that it’s gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it’s so easy to say, “Well, this doesn’t really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn’t really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn’t go all in on this.”
And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you’re trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it’s, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”
Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that’s my writing time”-
Cathy: Yeah ...
Jennie: it, it’s like, well, what evidence do you have that that’s worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?
Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people’s heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]
Like, so you’re also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missed
Jennie: the mark. Right ...
Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don’t think of that, or so that fear of that we’re gonna do this work, we’re gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you’re gonna hold time for your writing, you know?
Like, who are you, Ernest Hemingway? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like we, we have these thoughts in our head, and then we, and then, um, the, the great payoff of all of that hard work of holding the time and actually doing the writing might be, in the case of my people, like that some real A-hole reviewer tears you apart.
And-
Jennie: Because your- Yeah ... people have to have peer reviews- That’s right ... for everything, right?
Cathy: For [00:16:00] everything. Even books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything is peer reviewed, and I mean, I was just coaching somebody yesterday on like why are, why we have, I call it like submission friction. Like I talk about all these different points in the writing process, and how- Every point, there’s like, there’s friction to move the work from one kind of thing to another kind of thing.
So there, like when you go from draft to like submitted article, y- it’s becoming something different, and your job and your relationship to the, that piece of writing is different between when you’ve drafted it and when you’ve submitted it to a journal. Um, there’s lots of other transition points, but I was coaching somebody yesterday who was like, “Yeah, I got all this really bad feedback,” like really badly worded feedback, right?
Like, it wasn’t just critical, it was also delivered poorly because peer review in academia is blind, so you don’t know who read it, and so people say all kinds of things [00:17:00] without you, you know, without fear that you’re g- they’re gonna see you at a conference. So you know, supposedly they don’t know who you are, you don’t know who they are.
And it can be like really horrible, and this, this client, she was like, “I just can’t... I have trouble, I’m having trouble submitting anything from that study because that person’s words are in my head.” Oh. So like, so we also have like for the great effort of holding the writing time and doing, we might get these terrible things that like stop us in our tracks, and then we have to like coach our own minds through like, okay, why is it true that submitting again won’t necessarily have those same results, you know, and whatever else you need to, you know...
Like I work with my clients on different things they can think to get over that friction of submitting and that fear. But, but yeah, like sometimes there’s a payoff, and sometimes the payoff is like, “Congratulations, we’re g- people are really mean.”
Jennie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah,
Cathy: yeah. Yeah,
Jennie: so how much time do you spend in your program, would you say, on You know, so there’s the tactics and the- Mm-hmm
setting up the systems- Yeah ... versus mindset. Yeah. Like, what’s the balance?
Cathy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my program is set up so that you do the program in 12 weeks, and guess how long it takes to do the program every week? One to two hours. And you do it once or twice a week. So, like, if you take the program, it forces you to hold, like, an hour to do the material and an hour for a live call.
So the live call is where we’re really getting into the coaching stuff. Like, I, you know, there’s only so much coaching you can do on, like, a prerecorded lesson, right? But we do talk about mindset, um, throughout the whole thing. But on the coaching calls is really when we talk about mindset and, and get to figure out, like, [00:19:00] is the problem that you’re having actually a strategy problem, or are you having a mindset problem?
Is it, like, something that’s happening, or is it the way you’re thinking about what’s happening? So I would say it’s, like, a half and half, um, kind of breakdown between strategies and, um, techniques and, like, here’s processes, and let’s get your mind right.
Jennie: Well, I mean, that’s, to me, a, a giant revelation. I, I believe that mindset is at least 50% as well.
Yeah, yeah. And I think most writers don’t have any idea that, how important mindset is. And the program you and I are in together, the business mastermind that we’re in together, is hugely mindset focused, and it- Yeah ... it’s hard to show up with your mindset stuff. It’s embarrassing. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it’s hard to get coaching on it, at least for me anyway, because it’s, oftentimes it’s like, “You’re saying the same thing in a different way.
[00:20:00] Like, that’s just the same story, different words,” you know? You really have to confront the narratives that you have in your head, and where they came from, and what they’re serving, and that’s work too, right? Yeah,
Cathy: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,
Jennie: absolutely. And I mean, that’s, to me, the thing that I’ve, I’ve really learned, and your program honors that idea by half the time that people are spending is the, the mindset.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then we also... Like, the program is designed so that you take it once, and then you can keep taking additional rounds of the program. The content of the program doesn’t change, but you continue to have these mi- these, these coaching calls, right? Where we talk about, there’s kind of two part- like, two themes of the coaching calls.
Like, one theme is like, oh, now I- my whole calendar is really mission aligned, and I’m holding my writing time and whatever. And then what is the series of problems that happens after that, [00:21:00] right? Like, what’s the next level? Like, now that we’ve solved these things, ‘cause there’s never no, there’s never no problems.
Like, like, the next set of problems, uh, presents itself. Um, so we coach on those things. But also, like, I’ve just been, especially this, in this next group, I’ve told people, like, I’m like, “We’re gonna do more mindset than ever.” Like, we’re just gonna really coach your brains on, um, you know, on perfectionism, on procrastination, on transition friction, on zombie projects, on like, um-
Jennie: What’s a zombie project?
Cathy: Ooh, those are those things that are like, they’re not going anywhere. They’re dead, but you’re holding onto them in your mind, like someday I’m gonna get back to that. And it is not healthy to do that. So we, I, when I talk about, like, um, how to manage multiple projects at once, like so think multiple articles that you’re writing at once, people [00:22:00] have...
Like, academics have, I don’t know, like 10, 20 articles that they have, like that they’re holding in their mind as like these are possible articles that I could work on or these are projects that... I call them projects in play, right? Well, a lot of times like five of those are like, “Oh, this is a project I started.
There might be words on the page, but it stalled out.” We needed to do a reanalysis, and we didn’t n- and, and it was gonna be a lot of work to go back and do that, so it’s just kind of like alive but dead, right? Like a zombie. Yeah. So I tell people, and again, they fight me on this, like I’m like, “You need to kill them.”
Like you need... Zombie projects aren’t for resuscitating. They are for blessing and releasing. They are for like this is done. This is not going to... Because they’re in the way of all of the other living projects. So I talk about the projects as like we have a top three that are kind of, that we’re maybe rotating between or [00:23:00] that like once we, we, we submit something from the top three we can like promote something else, and then everybody else is sleeping.
You know? Just tell them they need to take a nap. And then the zombie projects we’re just, we kill them. You can, if you must, have a folder on your computer and put them there, but you need to get them out of like your working mind. They shouldn’t be in your pipeline. They should be like they... Because we can only hold so many things, and we can only manage so many projects at once, so we have to create systems and processes to make it feel like we’re only working on one thing at a time
Jennie: Well, I think this idea, which I adore now that I know what it is-
um, applies to book writers as well. Everybody has more than one book idea, and they have the book idea that they wanna write after the book that they’re working on, or they started three at a time or s- you know, oftentimes there’s a thing that happens, I think it happens about two-thirds of the way through a [00:24:00] book- Hmm
where suddenly you have a great idea for another book that is shinier and prettier and brighter and better- Yes ... than the one you’re working on.
Outro: Yep.
Jennie: And so this idea, I think, really applies to book writers, and most of us who are writing and sharing anything are also writing other content like- Yes. Yes
Substack and, um, or a newsletter or a podcast or whatever th- whatever the content that we’re working on is. So do you think that this idea of the zombie project- Mm-hmm ... or folder can apply there as well?
Cathy: For sure, because here’s the thing, right? The shiny object syndrome is really real be- and it, and it relates actually to the submission friction that I was talking about.
Like, I did a call about that just yesterday. Like, it relates because- Before your project is done, right, before it’s submitted, before it’s turned in, whatever, [00:25:00] it has the potential to be the very most amazing, best book that has ever been written by anyone. And as long as I don’t submit it, it is holding that potential.
Jennie: Yes. Okay.
Cathy: And so once the, so the more, but the more done the book gets, the less po- Like, almost like the less that po- the, the more that potential is kind of decreasing because it, it’s not that it’s not great, maybe it is that book, but like the potential of what it could become when it actually has become something is less, right, than the new shiny idea because the new shiny idea then has like all of this potential.
So, so I think that’s the, the newness of something like is, i- is very attractive, and it has so much to do with like our brains trying to avoid the hard work of the finishing and trying to... Like, [00:26:00] w- when something is new, you don’t know what the writing problems are yet. Yeah. But what, what’s existing, you have a lot of problems to solve.
There’s a ton of decisions to make.
Jennie: Yeah.
Cathy: And, um, and, and that, that feels hard and heavy.
Jennie: So for our listeners who are finishing up their blueprints, they’re coming across one of those friction points you talked about, where you’re going from planning your book, thinking about it, solving some problems, to you’re going back to writing ‘cause the- Yeah
blueprint is a kind of a pause. Not kind of, it’s a pause, and now you’re going back to the writing, and that s- transition is something a lot of writers don’t acknowledge- that it’s a different thing. So that idea- Right ... you were talking about of, um, when your academic writers are shifting from, you know, one thing to another.
They have a lot more shifts in a lot [00:27:00] more compressed period of time. But writers absolutely go through this, and then when they, when they call it done and get it to beta readers, and then they get it back and get it to, you know, going to pitch, those are all transition points. So a lot of our listeners are at one of those right now.
Yeah. What is, what is the mindset work to, that you guide people for shifting from one, um, process to another?
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your job changes. Like, that’s the, that, that’s the, you know ... Like, the job of, like, when you’re doing the blueprint, right? It’s a planning, it’s a pausing, it’s a thinking, it’s a
Right? The same thing we do, like, I teach a writing planning process, and that process is one kind of job, right? The job of, like, making decisions- And executing on those decisions. So the making decisions is another job, and the [00:28:00] executing on the decisions is another job. So just realizing, like, what is my job in this moment, that is a really powerful thing to think about and think like, “No, in the scope of this whole project, my job right now is to make decisions that then I can execute on.”
Jennie: Yes.
Cathy: And also... Yes. And not, and remember then, like, you execute on the decisions, and you might have to go back and make new decisions and execute differently. Like, that’s what composition, that’s what composing is, right? But you, you know, keep the job that you’re, for the stage that you’re at, and stop trying to solve the problems of another stage in the process.
Jennie: So bleeding into other jobs sounds like it’s a energy suck. So for, uh, a, somebody finishing the blueprint, it might be, “Well, now I’m gonna start researching agents and conferences I can go to to pitch at.” And it’s like, “No, you gotta write the book,” right? Yes. Is that-
Outro: Exactly, [00:29:00] exactly ...
Jennie: is that the kind of thing- Yes
yeah.
Cathy: Yeah, and so, like, a- and it’s also, I talk a- I talk in the program about, like, you’re solving the wrong problem at the wrong level, right? Like, that’s an in- perfect example of I’m solving the wrong problem. Like, I don’t, I don’t need to be, like, thinking about pitching agents. I need to be figuring out what my book idea is.
Like, you know what I mean? And so for, like, in, in, in our, in my program, there’s, you know, let’s say I think that what I have is a writing time problem, but if I don’t have writing project management, like if I don’t know how to plan a paper and I don’t know what the stages it needs to go through are, and I don’t know how to manage it in relation to other papers that I have, I can have two hours of writing, and I will sit there and not know what to do with it.
Jennie: Yes.
Cathy: So, like, there has to be, you know, you ha- so solving, you have to solve the right problem. You know? Like I, okay, I have a backlog of papers. I think it’s ‘cause I don’t have enough time. Like, you probably don’t have enough time, but that’s not the [00:30:00] only problem, you know? And that might not be the most pertinent problem to solve first.
Jennie: Right. I love this. I love this for our people finishing Blueprint. Um, and w- I’m curious just to sort of wrap up our conversation, why do you think... ‘Cause something that’s remarkable about the program that you run, which is again at scholarsvoice.com-
Cathy: It’s actually .org, but yeah
Jennie: Oh, dang.
Outro: Dot org.
Jennie: I said it wrong. Don’t worry about it. It’s fine. Scholarsvoice.org. We’ll put it down in the show notes. It’ll go in the show notes. Yeah. Um, well, the remarkable thing is that people love your program. Like, once they find it, they don’t leave. Yeah. They, they stay for a long time. Years. Yeah. Years and years and years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is?
Cathy: Because we’re never done. We’re never done as writers.
Jennie: Yeah.
Cathy: Right? Like, we’re always developing, and we’re always [00:31:00] changing, and we’re always responding to new situations. And I just think, like, I think it would be terrible to think, like, “I’ve learned how to write a novel or a book or an article, and now I’m done.
Like, and now I just, like, rinse and repeat for 30 years.” Like, no, that’s not how it works. First of all, it’s just not how it works, and also, would you really want it to work like that? Don’t you want it to get more interesting, different, better? Like, and so that’s why people stay, ‘cause the, the, the curriculum is...
I- it’s called, like, a spiral curriculum, where you could just, like, keep doing it again and again. And as you are going through your career, you are changing, and your situation is changing, and actually the demands of your career are changing. And so you can just continue to do this work over and over again, and, and many people do it and then come back after they’ve had, like, a little career change, and they realize, “Ooh, now all of these things have [00:32:00] shifted, and I need to, like, go back and figure all of this out again.”
And that’s normal and natural and fine and actually amazing.
Jennie: Um, so how can... If people are listening to this, and they’re like, “Wait, I wanna get in on this academic writing-” Yeah ... thing, I... So it’s only for tenured professors. It’s not- So- ... for people who want to be that, right? No.
Cathy: Yeah, so we... It is really for academics.
It’s really geared towards people who are in academic careers, tenured or hoping, you know, tenure-track professors or whatever they call it in the country that you live in, ‘cause it’s called different things. Um, it- we have a lot of people who are mid-career. Like, so it’s not just for early career. Um, but we, we have people at all different career stages, including post-docs, including full-time researchers, and so...
And even sometimes people from industry, like, or nonprofit who are doing research work and need to put out publications [00:33:00] into academic journals. So yeah, and you can go to scholarsvoice.org, and at the top navigation it says, “Publish your backlog,” and that is my Navigate program, which is really focused on helping you publish that backlog of papers and keep papers, like, flowing out into the world.
Um, scholarsvoice.org/navigate is where you’ll find all the information, and you can apply, and it’s open until, open for applications until August 28th.
Jennie: That is awesome. Well, if you’re, if you’re listening, um, now and that speaks to you, you can jump on that. If you’re listening in the future, uh, there will be another opportunity, uh, to get into- Yeah
Cathy’s program. And if you’re listening to the hashtag amwriting, uh, podcast and you’re not an academic, and- You’re finishing a blueprint or you’re realizing after this conversation, “Gosh, I’m doing the wrong job at the wrong [00:34:00] time,” or, “I don’t have a time problem, I have a mindset problem,” or any of these, these ideas that Cathy has shared with us.
Put them into practice and, and I think that for writers listening to podcasts like this is part of the mindset work because- Yes ... you’re listening to bigger conversations and bigger ideas, and you’re getting something in your ear that counteracts that story you’re telling your own self. So, um, I’m just grateful for you, Cathy, for sharing those stories and thoughts with us today, and for doing this amazing work that you’re doing out in the world.
So thank you for joining us.
Cathy: Thank you for having me on the podcast.
Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for being here. Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.
Outro: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, [00:35:00] aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.


This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie Nash introduces an upcoming series of Write Big episodes that share her vulnerable, behind-the-scenes process of turning Write Big concepts into a Write Big book, thanking listeners and inviting paid subscriptions. In this episode, she revisits her “don’t wait to be picked” stance while confronting her own feelings as her book submission process stretches seven or eight months with rejections.
She examines the discomfort beneath wanting to be chosen—entitlement and exceptionalism, loneliness and the desire for an ally, embarrassment about ambition, doubts tied to leadership and authority, and the burden of carrying the project alone if she isn’t picked. Jennie argues that whether writers are picked or not, the creative road is still hard and what matters is one’s response, which she frames as the core of writing big.


This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie Nash hosts a #amwriting podcast BookLab with guest Kathleen Barber, author of Truth Be Told and newly released Sisterhood Above All (co-written with Amayah Shaienne), and discusses Barber’s range across thrillers and romance, her character-first approach, and how RushTok inspired an authentic sorority-rush thriller featuring Madison, Shay, and Ava as tensions escalate and someone dies. They define RushTok as viral TikTok coverage of University of Alabama sorority recruitment and note its broad international fascination.
In the BookLab, they evaluate three first-page submissions by asking “Would we turn the page?” They praise Heather’s Trust Me for strong voice, vivid Austin setting, and an intriguing problem hook, with minor notes about genre context. They decline Odeon Omega due to unearned logistics and too much dialogue despite an intriguing title/advert. They find Empty Spaces compellingly written but confusing from too many names and unclear stakes, suggesting more interiority and clarity.
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Connect with Kathleen
Visit Kathleen’s website to find her books and more: https://www.kathleenbarber.com
Transcript
Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a book lab session where we answer the most important question about your first pages.
Would we pick up the book? Would we turn the page? Today, I have a really special guest with me. I have Kathleen Barber here, who is so many things. She’s the author of Truth Be Told, which was adapted as a series on Apple TV, Follow Me, Both Things Are True, and just brand new, like it came out four days ago, Sisterhood Above All, with, I’m gonna try her name, Amaya Chen?
How do you-
Barbara: Yeah. Uh, um, yeah. That’s, that’s very close. I think it’s Amaya Chen.
Jennie: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we’re gonna hear about that in a minute. Um, I haven’t, I haven’t cracked it open yet, but I’m so [00:01:00] excited for it. Um, Kathleen’s also an Author Accelerator certified book coach and a former attorney, and she lives in Washington, DC with her family.
So welcome, Kathleen.
Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.
Jennie: So I watched your unboxing the other day. It was so fun, and I didn’t realize that we had scheduled this right on top of, like the actual- Oh ... launch of your book.
Barbara: No, that, that’s okay. It’s, it’s great. Um, it gives me something to think about that’s not just, like, spiraling.
Like, is anybody gonna read my book? Is anybody gonna like it? Um, so it gives me something else to focus on.
Jennie: Well, it’s so interesting you say that because I think of you as this really seasoned pro and, you know, it’s been really interesting for me to watch your career because you’ve written some really different kinds of books.
You did a ... Well, your first book was obviously a big thriller and a huge success, and at one point, you pivoted to romance, and now you’re doing ... Well, I, I saw that book list [00:02:00] called Sisterhood Above All, a soapy thriller Yes. Yes ... which is such a great description, and you did it with a collaborator. So you just seem interested in story to me.
Barbara: I, I am. Yeah. I’m always very ... I always start a story with the characters. Um, and so then their story kind of spirals out from there. Um, yeah, so I, my last book that came out before this one was, was a rom-com. Um, and I was really nervous when I started writing it. I was like, “How am I going to write this when I’ve been writing suspense and thrillers before?”
And it turns out that, like, at the heart of it, stories are stories, and people are people, and, you know, in a romance, happy things happen. In a thriller, bad things happen, but things still happen.
Jennie: Amazing. So give us the overview of the brand new book, ‘cause it’s, it’s really juicy.
Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, so I’m really excited about it.
Um, Sisterhood Above All is a thriller set during sorority rush, and so it follows three different [00:03:00] women who are involved there. There’s Madison, who is the president of what’s she perceives as to be the coolest sorority on campus, so she’s kind of the gatekeeper, and there’s Shay, who is the president of a rival sorority and trying to shake, shake up the Greek institutions, and then there’s Ava, who is a potential new member.
She’s going through rush. She’s desperate to join Madison’s sorority, um, and she might be a little too desperate. Uh, so you know, it’s a thriller. Bad things happen. Somebody dies, um, you know, and things kind of spiral out, spiral out of control.
Jennie: But tell us about the collaboration, ‘cause it’s- Yeah ... so interesting how that came about and how it went and-
Barbara: Yeah.
You know, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, I, like many writers, write alone, and I had never really considered collaborating with anybody before, um, but- But when I was kind of talking about this, I, I’d been pitching my agent a sorority themed thriller for a while. [00:04:00] Um, and at one point when, when Rush Talk was getting really big a couple summers ago, she was like, “This is the moment.
This, you should write this book, but I think that in order to make it feel more authentic, we should bring in somebody who’s living this in this moment.” Um, so one of her colleagues found Amaya, who, um, was up until very, very recently an active member of a sorority at the University of Alabama, and brought us together.
And Amaya and I got along right away, and we both had kind of the same vision for what we wanted the book to be, and so collaborating with her was, was a lot of fun in a way that I had been nervous that it wouldn’t be. But it was, it was a really good time, and I’m really, really proud of the book.
Jennie: So for those who don’t know or weren’t following, can you tell us what Rush Talk-
Barbara: Yeah
was
Jennie: or is
Barbara: or- Yeah ... shall be? Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so if you’re gonna join a sorority, um, you go through, you go through recruitment and which is very slangily [00:05:00] called rush. Um, and so on TikTok a few years ago, um, people started sharing about their experiences during sorority rush, but specifically, uh, during sorority rush at the University of Alabama.
Um, and it really took on a life of its own, like people were watching it like it was, you know, a television program. Uh, they made a documentary about it, which, you know, I’ll, I will let you make your own conclusions about the documentary. Um, but people just got really, really into it, and people... And it was kind of appealing to people who had gone through sorority rush at some point, were thinking about going through a sorority rush, or who were just invested in, you know, watching people have these kind of outlandish experiences and, and share them.
So, um, it
Jennie: was a lot of fun. My understanding was that it got very, very popular in other countries?
Barbara: I- it’s definitely... [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, um- So sorority, some, some sororities are international. Not, not all of them are. Um, but by and large, when they say international, they mean that there are chapters in Canada, not that, like, there are chapters in, you know, like Europe or, or other countries.
And so it just, it’s something that is so unique and so, like, uniquely about, like, this type of college experience that I think it’s been really interesting to people in lots of different places.
Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So obviously the book has been out, like, mere hours here. But, um, how does it feel? Are you, are you- It’s exciting
you said you were excited and proud and- So
Barbara: exciting. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m really, really proud of the book. I love it. I mean, I know everybody, like, loves their own books, but I do. I truly, like, love this book, and I just really hope that the readers do too.
Jennie: You know, it’s not true that everybody loves their book.
I, I was dying to have somebody on the podcast who will never come on the podcast. But I- Yeah ... I heard a story about somebody who [00:07:00] got a seven-figure deal for a book that they really didn’t actually love, and then- Oh, no ... they, they wrote it. It came out, and then when they had to co- come time to do the publicity, they just dreaded it.
They, it was like a, just they did it for the money. They got the money, and then didn’t, didn’t wanna talk about it, like felt sort of ashamed about it. And I was like, “Oh, please, come talk about that.” But of course they, they won’t. So...
Barbara: That’s wild. Isn’t that wild? That’s wild. Yeah. I just, I just can’t even imagine how that would feel.
Um, I mean...
Jennie: I know. Well, I, uh, the cover of this, um, of this new book, Sisterhood Above All, is- is really cool too. So we will link to it in the show notes, and everyone can go read it and check it out, and, um, Kathleen’s other books, I’ve read them all, and you have such range and, um, like I said, [00:08:00] interesting stories.
So with that, let’s get to our, our Book Lab entries. We just always wanna start by thanking those who submitted. It’s not easy to do this, to put your stuff out there with no context and no ability to talk back or anything and have random s- people on the internet, you know, talk about your stuff. So really appreciate the, the risk-taking of doing that, and we do this in order to help us all get better and, and learn, you know, what works and, and, um, for your own self or your own writing, what, what you want it to be.
So what we’re gonna do, as always, is I’m gonna read the entry, and then we’re gonna ask ourselves, would we turn the page? So, um, the first entry is Fiction and it is, uh, author’s name is [00:09:00] Heather and the name of the work is Trust Me. So here we go
I can’t tell you whether it’s the Johnny Cash mural, clusters of candles nestled into every corner of the long stone bar, or the smoky scent of Palo Santo that tucks Austin into my head the first night. Maybe it’s the unexpected jazz trio on a Tuesday in a town built for blues, country, and rock, or it could be the two cowboys deep in conversation at a table in the back of the bar.
I’ll later, I’ll later learn that making a hot Austin guy a cowboy because of his hat, faded jeans, and scuffed boots is the same as labing- labeling a frat bro in a hoodie and sweats an athlete. It’s just how they dress. I can tell you I like the looks of Austin men a hell of a lot better, especially that wide silver belt buckle that dresses up the whole package in a bow.
It’s going [00:10:00] on nine PM when I arrive at Whistlers in East Austin, and the bartender hands, hands me a peach-colored mezcal craft cocktail. Fresh juice, pungent herbs, and the smoky sister to tequila are the perfect salve after what’s transpired since my flight landed from New York two hours earlier. I follow the snake tattoo on his foreha- forearm as the bartender shakes another cocktail for the couple next to me.
Damn, he’s hot, too. The crowd starts to pick up, and I signal Snake Tattoo for another before I lose his attention for good. The warm agave liquor spreads through my bones, and I start to relax. Maybe this isn’t the disaster I think it is. Maybe I can actually pull it off. I glance around at the mostly twenty and thirty-something crowd angling for spots at the bar.
The women wear short dresses and long hair. The men, well, those jeans are something, along with their finely cut biceps and well-placed tattoos. Can’t help but glance over at those cowboys again and get a warm smile in [00:11:00] return. Easy, girl. Back to business. I have a problem, and this second mezcal is going to help me solve it.
All right. What do you think? What was your first impression?
Barbara: I really enjoyed that. I would definitely turn the page there. I, I feel like there was, like, a really strong sense of, sense of place, and I, in particular, I really enjoyed the, the first line, not only because it gives us that sense of place, but it, because it also then tells us something about the narrator and how she perceives the world around her in that first line.
Jennie: Yeah, and, and there’s a good m- a, a good question at hand here, which is what’s she doing here?
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: She’s come from New York. We get that. It’s a little unclear how, how old she is, ‘cause she’s referencing other people’s ages, but not her own, so we, we don’t really know what’s happening or what, what’s, what’s about.
[00:12:00] Um, I mean, I thought the writ-
Barbara: Well, I
Jennie: agree. Yeah. I thought the writing was great. It sort of tripped along-
Barbara: Mm ...
Jennie: um, nicely. I
Barbara: like at the end where... I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to step on you. No,
Jennie: no, go. Yeah. I like at
Barbara: the end, I like at the end where, um, she says she has a problem, and the second mezcal is gonna help her solve it.
I thought that was really interesting, ‘cause I, it piqued my interest, made me wanna know what the problem is, but it’s also kind of funny. Like, the mezcal’s probably not gonna help you solve your problem, but it’s like...
Jennie: Yeah. No, it’s so true. I was longing for a little bit more of a sense of what’s happening here.
I mean, this could be any kind of story at this point. It could be she could be a spy. She could be an assassin. She could be trying to get a guy back. Like, we, there’s really no sense of what the story’s gonna be. I always like that on the first page. What about you?
Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree with you. I, it, it could, it could go in any direction.
I kind of [00:13:00] sense from the tone that it’s, you know, it’s going to be something, uh- Well, I guess I don’t know. You know, honestly. Now, now that I’m looking at it again and thinking about it, um, you’re right, it could be... The, the problem that she has could be a thriller problem, or it could be a romantic problem, since she’s kind of made, made comments about the different men.
I think that was a hint to me that it might be a romantic problem that she’s having, but I actually don’t know.
Jennie: Yeah. The, the- obviously she’s clocking all the hot guys in this bar, which tells us something, either about her or what she’s up to. We don’t know. Um, but yeah, it’s, um, really good detail, like the, you mentioned that first line, and I liked the line about her sh- the self-awareness about, you know, she calls him a cowboy and then she says, you know, sort of like, “Oh, right, that’s not really fair.”
Mm-hmm. “We don’t know.” [00:14:00] You know, that, I thought that was, made me think- Yeah ... this character’s gonna know themselves.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I, I also really enjoyed the kind of specificity that she uses in the descriptions, like when she talks about, you know, the, the cocktail that she’s drinking, and the tattoo on the bartender’s arm.
Like, I just felt like those details really made the story come alive for me. So that, like, even if I didn’t exactly know where we were going, I could, I could picture where we were.
Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really well said. Well, we like this. I think I would, I would turn the page.
Barbara: I would, I would too, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennie: We would turn the page. Um, I mean, the only notes I think for me would be, I mean, it’s always so tricky, because if we were picking this book up, the title, Trust Me, doesn’t really tell us anything, but the cover would.
Outro: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: The vibe of the cover would. We’d have a little more context for where we were and [00:15:00] what this was about, and that would probably help with the issue that, that I have, which is, well, what kind of book is this?
We don’t know. Um, and you know, now that I’m thinking of it, we don’t even know whe- where we are in time. Um, I’m, I’m assuming modern day, but I don’t know why I assumed that. It, maybe it’s not. So maybe just a tiny bit more of a sense of- Uh, context for the reader. Mm-hmm. But that’s my only note. L- do you have any notes?
Barbara: Yeah. You know, I honestly don’t think that I, I have any additional notes. I mean, I, I really enjoyed this selection, and I would definitely keep reading here.
Jennie: Well, Heather, that’s high praise, so
Barbara: Yeah, I, I usually have ideas. I usually have notes but I don’t.
Jennie: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s g- a good one for us to start with, and very fun, I hope, for you to hear that from Kathleen.
All right, let’s [00:16:00] go to our, our next one. This is fiction. It’s called Odeon Omega, um, and the author is ... Well, the, the, um, it’s coming across as, um, Sound Smith, but who knows what that is? So, um, Odeon Omega, they will know who they are, for sure. All right, here we go. “The grand O-O opening continues all month long at your new entertainment destination, the one and only, first of its kind on this or any other coast, the all-new, all-excitement Odeon Omega.
‘Gah!’ Emmy shrieked from the bathroom. ‘You can turn the TV volume down now, Seth. We’re done.’ Seth was still lying in bed, his naked body mostly covered with Emmy’s cream-colored, satiny soft sheets. He chuckled while reaching for the remote. ‘I wasn’t the one who turned it up.’ ‘I know that. I have to [00:17:00] turn the TV way up like that, though.
It’s the only way to drown out the neighbors. The walls in this place are so damn thin, and they’re always banging on them, disturbing me when I’m trying to have sex.’ ‘Those b******s,’ Seth chuckled. ‘I’m saying, I like ... I’m saying, like, what am I supposed to do? Not f**k? Hey, that is so not an option,’ Seth p- Seth pressed the mute button, then went back to lying on his back, his hands behind his head.
Another noise startled him, this one coming from Emmy’s phone. A toneless version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun blared from Emmy’s clutch purse. ‘Turn that off, too,’ Emmy shouted from the bathroom. ‘That’s my mother’s ringtone. I don’t feel like talking to her right now.’ Seth rolled over to the nightstand and opened her clutch and found the button to silence Emmy’s phone.
He lingered on the image of Emmy’s mother. ‘Wow, Emmy, you and your mom could pass for sisters, easy.’ ‘Ew, don’t tell me that,’ Emmy said. ‘Tell her that, but not me. Bet you’re already imagining yourself in a threesome with her and me, [00:18:00] aren’t you?’ ‘Huh, what’s that?’ Seth was distracted by Emmy’s driver’s license in the clutch’s interior pocket.
He slid it out of the pocket and read what he assumed was Emmy’s birth name. ‘Myrtle? What? Your re- your real name is Myrtle?’ Emmy stepped out of the bathroom, still naked from their lovemaking, with a sky blue-colored towel clenched between her legs.”
That’s a vibe.
Barbara: It is. It is, yeah. I mean, opening, uh, opening in the aftermath of sex is a, is a bold choice. I’ll be honest, I don’t feel like I have very much context for what’s happening here. Um, it seems like Emmy and Seth don’t know each other very
Jennie: well. I got that sense, too. I got that sense, too, and that the sex that she has this system for turning up the TV has been for other people.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah. On, on that note, though, I did kind of have, uh, a fundamental disbelief about the setup that was giving me a stumbling block when I was reading this, just because it didn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me that she would turn up the television to distract herself from the neighbors, when I would think that that would be more distracting or, you know, just use music or...
And I didn’t really understand why she would be explaining it to him after the fact instead of in the moment. Um, that felt like it was perhaps just put there for the reader,
Jennie: so that we could be distracted. Yeah, it was a little explainy, a little... Yeah, like a, um, we use that term info dump, and an info dump doesn’t have to be a whole scene.
It can just be a line like that where I, I didn’t buy it either that she would actually say that to him now. Mm-hmm. If... He probably would’ve said, “Why are you turning the TV on?”
Barbara: Right.
Jennie: Earlier.
Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah, and it seemed like that would be the conversation that would have before we got to this moment. So that was something that, that I struggled with a bit.
Jennie: I also didn’t believe, it felt like, uh, unearned that he’s pulling this license out of her purse. I could see, I could see that he might have seen something on her phone if he’s turning her phone off. But-
Barbara: Mm-hmm ...
Jennie: to, to actually then see... I kept, like I was trying to think through the logistics. Like, okay, see one of those little slidey things inside a purse, but you can’t see- Mm
the driver’s license. Like, why would he reach in and pull it out? It felt like the author wanted us to get to this moment where- Mm-hmm ... Seth got this information.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jennie: It, yeah, it felt unearned to me.
Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree, especially because it doesn’t seem like Seth knows her very well, obviously. Then for him to be [00:21:00] digging around in her clutch purse felt- Untrue to the situation, um, unless something else was going on that we don’t hear about.
Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Um, this... When I said, like, “Well, this is a vibe,” this character has a, a tone or a style or sense about, like a sort of swagger about- Mm-hmm ... her that interests me. Um, I happen to be in the middle... I’m behind everybody else, but I’m in the middle of reading Yesteryear. Oh. Have you read-
Barbara: Oh. Yes, yes.
Jennie: Don’t tell me what ha- I, I- Don’t tell me ...
Barbara: I w- I won’t. I was also late to it, and everybody was trying to tell me about it, and I was just constantly walking around going, “No spoilers, no spoilers.” Yeah.
Jennie: But the, that character has, has such a brashness- Mm-hmm ... of point of view and opinion in both, um, both parts of the story there, and there’s something about this character that rem- reminds me of that.
[00:22:00] There’s like a, I don’t know, um, a, just a brashness. S- And I, I’ve been enjoying that protagonist- Mm-hmm ... the Yesteryear protagonist, just ‘cause it’s unusual. I’ve read a tiny bit, and I know people are saying, “Oh, she is so unlikable,” but there’s just something of a character that’s so owning their, um-
Barbara: Mm-hmm
Jennie: way, and this woman’s ownership of, of her sexuality, I guess, I, I thought was- Hmm ... interesting.
Barbara: Yeah. No, I, I, I know what you mean, and I, I, I am intrigued by her as a character because, I mean, again, here she, she seems to have kind of an interesting setup in a, an apartment building that has thin walls, um, has this system of turning up her television, um, but not with Seth before.
So, you know, it seems like she’s had several partners back to this, this space. Um, but she seems very, very confident and, like you said, kind of swaggery [00:23:00] with him. Um, so yeah, I, I am intrigued to know more about, like, who she is and what makes her that way. Um...
Jennie: Yeah. Uh, for me, probably not enough to turn the page.
Um-
Barbara: Not for, not for me either. I-
Jennie: Yeah. And, and I have to say that the thing that intrigues me the most about this whole thing is that the title of this book is Odeon Omega, and that’s the random, um- I think that’s the random show on TV
Barbara: Yeah,
Jennie: the- Am I ma- am I
Barbara: making that up? No, no, no, that, that, that’s the first line.
It’s, um, it sounds like it’s maybe like a commercial. I was kind of envisioning it from the way that it was spelled out as, you know, kind of like, uh, oh, the way that like a, a carnival or like a car salesman is like, “The grand o- o- opening.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that’s kind of how I was envisioning it.
Um, so I, I didn’t, I did enjoy s- seeing that right up front, um, [00:24:00] but I wanted more context to understand what it was, because without that, I, I don’t know what that line means. Um-
Jennie: And that just the author’s choice, like, okay, the TV’s on f- for a random reason- Mm-hmm ... or for her systematic sex reason, and, and she’s hearing this show opening, and then that’s the title of the book.
Like, something about this, I, I thought of it as a, yeah, like a carnival or a show or something- Mm-hmm ... a theme park, um, that there’s g- that’s gonna become central to the story. It’s kind of an interesting way of putting that in in, and presumably- Mm ... it will come back, um- Yeah ... in an important way. But I, I was intrigued by that most of all, actually.
Barbara: Yeah. No, same, especially because that’s the moment that Emmy says, “Turn the volume down.” So I was, uh, so it made it seem, to me at least, that there was something about that particular advertisement that she [00:25:00] was reacting to, and I wanted to know what that was.
Jennie: Well, that’s a really great point, and I think if we were to give this writer some guidance- Um, it might be to make more of that.
Mm. If the character reacts more to that. Like, in, you know, that she can’t hear it or that it’s upsets her in a particular way, or she gives us some information or context about that so that we, I don’t know, I guess we need to be more grounded in, in what’s happening.
Barbara: Yeah. And I also just feel like that would give us a little bit more s- because it, that’s right there in the title, so it’s obviously gonna be important to the story.
And so like that would give us a little bit of curiosity about what it is and would propel us to try and understand why she’s reacting the way that she is. Um-
Jennie: Yeah. And just from a technical [00:26:00] standpoint, I’m looking at this entry, it’s almost all dialogue.
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Which I think is hard on a, an opening page.
Uh, don’t you? I think-
Barbara: I, I do. I, I would really have liked to see a little bit more interiority from Emmy here to kind of, I don’t know, understand how she feels, not only about that advertisement, but about, about Seth. Like, did she li- does she like Seth, or is he just like a guy, you know? Um, I just wanted to know a little bit more about how she, who I’m presuming is the protagonist, is experiencing this scene.
Jennie: Yeah. Um, yeah, there was even a moment when I thought, “Is she selling sex?” Mm-hmm. Is, is that... Is she a sex worker? Um, you know- True ... so too many questions about what’s, what’s happening here, which I think could be solved by, um, balancing out the dialogue, um, w- with some other information. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I’m, um, I’m hoping that this character gets a story that we want, we want to read ‘cause I’m intrigued.
Barbara: Yeah. Same. Same.
Jennie: Yeah. All right. We have one more that we’re going to, um, read. Do you wanna read this one? From your little, “Oh, oh, oh,” opening- ... I was like, “Oh, maybe you’re a good narrator. I’m not.”
Barbara: Sure. Sure. I’ll, I’ll read it. Um, so this one is called Empty Spaces. Um, it’s fiction. I’m not entirely certain who the author is, unless I’m missing that in the spreadsheet.
It looks like perhaps it starts with a T. Um, but here, here is the submission. “April 1st, 1995. ‘Please, please, please,’ Corey sputtered, gripping the black receiver with both hands while the operator relayed her [00:28:00] request. ‘Person-to-person call for Tess. Will you accept the charges?’ ‘No, she’s asleep.’ Corey knew her mother was at the beige phone on the kitchen wall a thousand miles away.
Then her father’s voice in the background. ‘Honey, let the girl talk to her dau-...’ And dial tone. Corey slammed the receiver back into its cradle. ‘What the f**k?’ She missed. Her knuckles scraped the chrome holder, and she unleashed her fury on the edge of the black payphone. ‘F**k, f**k, f*****g f****r.’ The rain that had been collecting in the roo- in the rim of the payphone box was shaken loose by her tantrum and cascaded down inside the collar of her flay- flight jacket.
Well, Charlie’s flight jacket. ‘Skipper,’ came Top’s quiet baritone from behind her. ‘We’re ready to roll.’ ‘Thanks, Top.’ Corey accepted the styrofoam cup of coffee he handed her, then sloshed her way to the lead truck, Arlo trotting at her heels. She hoisted herself up into the passenger side of the rig. Arlo curled up beside her and dug his head into her lap.
Why did her mother have to be such a [00:29:00] little b***h? And on this night. Was it too much to expect her to remember that it was Charlie’s birthday? No, Maria remembered. She was the one who kept a file of birthday cards, organized by month and paper clipped to envelopes, neatly stamped and addressed to the recipient.
But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.” After a few minutes, Top started his status report. “Got word from the 24-hour man. The lot they gave us was too small and underwater. He put up a fuss and got us moved to the football field at the high school.” Corey took a sip. “It’ll be nice to have a dry lot.
Daisy’s got that one nail that looks a little soft.” She fiddled with the radio, settling on a country station, what else was there, and yawned. “Where are we headed tonight?” And that is it.
Jennie: Wow, well, author T., uh, Wood, what a treat to have Kathleen Barber read your, read your stuff like that. Gee, you, you sounded amazing.
You sounded like you’d written that. That was so cool. Do you- I, uh- ... narrate your own books?
Barbara: I, I do not, but I have [00:30:00] small children, and I read aloud every night.
Jennie: Do you do the voices?
Barbara: Oh, yes, I definitely do the voices.
Jennie: Do you do all of them, like, in a
Barbara: very- I do all of them.
Jennie: You do?
Barbara: Yeah, yeah. My, my kids were really into the Wings of Fire series, so I’ve read all of those books, and there are many, many dragons, and they all have different voices, and if I do not remember the different voice, my children will be like, “Mommy, that’s not what Peril sounds like,” and then I’ll have to remember and try again,
Jennie: so.
Take notes? Do you have, do you have a guide? Do you just remember? Um,
Barbara: no, I just, I just try and remember.
Jennie: Oh,
Barbara: my. I should take notes, but I’m not that organized. I just go off.
Jennie: That, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. Um, just while we’re talking about it, is there audio already for the new book, for, uh, Sisterhood Above All?
Barbara: There, there is. There is, yeah. Um, I recently got, uh, got a peek at it, and I am very, very excited. We have a different [00:31:00] narrator for each of the POV characters, and they are all fantastic. Super excited.
Jennie: Amazing. All right, so back to this, back to this work. Um, I thought this was great. Uh, did you, did you, how did you feel reading it?
Barbara: I, I, I enjoyed reading it. Um, when, when I was, when I was reading it the first time, I, I found myself getting stopped a few times because I felt like there were a lot of names, and I was confused. Um, you know, it’s, it’s in- I don’t feel like an author needs to spell out for me who every single character is on the first page at all.
Um, it just felt like in a small amount of time, there were a lot of names that I felt like I was trying to keep track of, and that was a bit confusing for me. Slowed me down a little bit.
Jennie: I agree with that. Actually, the first time that I read it And [00:32:00] admittedly, I was scanning these really fast the first time I read it, but there, there’s something to that, how things hit your head.
But I thought that, um, I thought Daisy was a horse because I was like the one nail that looks a little soft, like is who, what- Yeah ... where would that matter that we need to be on grass? And, and, and then I was like, “Wait, who even is Daisy?” So I got stuck on that- Yeah ... for sure. And, um, and then the, um, there’s a nickname that I think the main...
I think Corey, the, the other character calls her Skipper, so I was confused by that. Right. So it, yeah. Yeah. Are those some of the things that you mean?
Barbara: Yeah. The, those was... And I was also just a little confused when I first started reading that it starts out with person to person call for Tess, and then we’re talking about her mother.
And I, I thought at first that her mother was [00:33:00] named Tess, and that, and that the operator was trying to reach her, and that her mother was simply not, simply not wanting to talk even though she was by the phone. But then later on I realized that her mother is actually named Maria, and that Tess must be somebody else.
Um, I think Corey’s daughter, but I didn’t, I didn’t catch that on first reading. I had to read it again to be able to understand that.
Jennie: Yeah. So there, there is a lot going on for sure. When I said that I thought it was great, I- I’m, I’m hoping that this character’s some kind of trucker just because that’s cool, and, um, it, it seemed like we have some tension both in whatever’s happening around...
You know, like, they have a 24-hour man. They’re... Uh, so there’s something afoot. Like, there’s a pr- a project or something afoot that feels like it’s not gonna go well or something’s gonna [00:34:00] happen there. Um, and I also, you know, now we have the thing with the, well, we learn I think it’s the mom. But, um, th- there- Yeah
were enough elements of intrigue, like, what’s, what’s going on here, what’s gonna happen, that I... And I thought it was well-written.
Barbara: Yeah. No, and I, one of the things that I really enjoyed was the way, the, the descriptions of what the, what the scenery looks like with the, with like the weather. So like there’s, there’s the rain, um, there’s another line about how when they’re like getting into the truck that like the lot is underwater, so I’m kind of like envisioning...
I actually don’t know what time of day it is, but for some reason I’m envisioning it being a little bit darker, but that might just be because of, of the rain that’s happening. Maybe that’s what’s making me think that it’s, it’s a little bit darker outside, but I’m like envisioning the, the rain, and they’re getting into the rig.
But I, I didn’t get that she was a truck driver. I, I, I think maybe... But I, but I, [00:35:00] I don’t know. I don’t know. I thought that maybe she was some sort of- Some sort of, like, news person. But I don’t... ‘Cause I don’t actually, I don’t actually know what a 24-hour man is, so I think that might have... Okay. Yeah. No, I don’t know.
I was just like... So I, so I didn’t know. Um, but I was, I was curious to know... Yeah. I was gonna say, I was curious to know why she was making this call to her mother at this moment, and why she was so desperate for her mother to answer the phone at this moment. Um, so yeah, th- those were, those are questions that I had.
Jennie: Usually, back in the day, which this was, um, will you accept the charges was something you did when you had no money.
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: You know, you would call home or wherever and, ‘cause you didn’t have money to make a call, so the operator would place the call and ask the [00:36:00] person to accept the charges. Mm-hmm. And normally you would do that with somebody who knows you have, you’re having a problem, or, you know.
So, like, this is a very particular moment that led me to believe that she didn’t, she didn’t even have money for a call. So- Mm-hmm ... I don’t know why I placed her as a trucker. Like, she climbed into the- Oh, okay ... the rig. She s- she sloshed her way to the lead truck. She’s fiddling with the radio station. Like, what, where we headed?
Yeah. Like, we’re just on a job. I totally made her a trucker
Barbara: and I- Yeah. No, no, no. I, well, I think maybe the reason I thought maybe she wasn’t was because there were all these other... Because, like, Top is there, and the, it’s, it’s a lead truck, and she’s, she’s getting into the passenger side. And there’s also a, a, a dog, I assume.
I assume Arlo’s a dog. I suppose it could be some other sort of animal that’s, that’s with her, but I, I assume Arlo’s a dog. Um- Well,
Jennie: so this is actually a really great [00:37:00] conversation for anybody listening, and particularly for this author. You can see that if you confuse your reader They’re gonna spend their time with these kinds of questions.
Like, is the mother Tess or is it Corey? Is this woman a trucker or not? Is... You know, and those are not the kind of questions you want to be leaving your reader with. Those are-
Barbara: Yeah ...
Jennie: um, I don’t know w- how we would describe them, almost logistics. They’re,
Barbara: they’re more like de- yeah, yeah, exactly. ‘Cause I mean, they’re, I, I, I enjoy getting a good question at the start of reading something, you know?
Like, you know, I mean, for example, it’s, it’s really interesting that Corey made what seems to be a collect call, and they didn’t just not answer it. They answered it, and then hung up on her, which feels, like, very purposeful. And so, like, I’m very, I’m very curious about that relationship. I’m curious about the fact that, that Charlie is, is dead, um, and [00:38:00] who Charlie is to the, to the narrator.
These are things that, like, have piqued my curiosity, and I would like to learn more about, um, would inspire me to read more, to learn more about those things. Uh, but then those other things that we were talking about, like, well, like, who is this? W- what kind of animal is Daisy? Like, what are, where are they actually going?
Like, what, what is, what is the goal here? What, what is the deal about the, the lot and the, and the football field? The, w- what are we gonna do here? Those are questions that, that slowed me down, and made me less likely to want to keep reading.
Jennie: Yeah. I loved that line, “But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.”
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: And I, I’m thinking- Really poignant ... that that’s the center of this story, you know, s- who, who was Charlie? I think you said that. Mm-hmm. Was-
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: And ‘cause she’s got the jacket.
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: She’s got Charlie’s jacket, so- That, that’s
Barbara: true, and sh- and she’s wearing it, I think. [00:39:00]
Jennie: Yeah, and, and so- I mean, I suppose Charlie could be a child if this person is older.
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: Like, you know, um, but y- I ... So I had this weird reaction to this, which is I thought it was fun, and maybe that was you reading it. I thought, I thought the writing was great, but I wouldn’t turn the page. I’d be frustrated. You know, if, if there was another book or another story that was, um, didn’t make me work so hard- Mm
to figure out where I was or what was happening, I would choose that over this. So it’s a weird combination for me of great job, but it’s a no for me.
Barbara: Yeah,
Jennie: that- What about you?
Barbara: That’s, that’s how I felt. There, there were a lot of elements here that I think are, that are intriguing and that if presented slightly differently would make me want to turn the page.
But as, as it is right now, I, I would not. [00:40:00]
Jennie: I agree with that. I think it feels close. Mm-hmm. Um, so how could we give this person some direction for, um- Yeah ... well, you talked about all the names, and I don’t think the solution is ID all these names.
Barbara: Right.
Jennie: Mm-hmm. That’s gonna be clunky. Or ID all these people. Um-
Barbara: Yeah.
I, I think for, for me personally, what I think would help was if we were to get a bit more of a peek inside the nar- inside Corey’s head, so we could understand from her perspective why it’s important that she’s making this call, like, what the goal is with the truck. Um, if we just saw it a little bit more from her view and got to know a little bit more of the information that she already holds in her head, I think that would go a long way to making the story feel more accessible to the reader.
Jennie: That’s really well said, and [00:41:00] hopefully that helps the writer for your next pass to, to think about. But I- there’s something, there’s something good I think here going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have the same, um, comment that I had earlier. I, I wanna know what kind of story I’m in, and I’m s- and I’m not sure. We were talking about sorting out these relationships and what’s happening with the field and the truck and then the weather and all that, but again, is this
There’s no sense of what kind of story this is going to be. And, um, I, I always want a little more. And, and the title is Empty Spaces, which doesn’t help, um- Yeah ... point us to that. I hear that. So just a little more, um, of a sense of what world are we? What, what problem do we have? What world are we in? Um, you know, and even just that last bit where the character turns the radio station on and yawns, “Where are we headed [00:42:00] tonight?”
It- there’s, there’s not an urgency of It’s, s- nobody’s running from anything. There’s no- Right ... threat, uh,
except for the mom who won’t answer the call.
Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
Jennie: Yeah. Um, so a little, a little more of a sense of what’s at stake. Um, I know, we always are asking so much on a first page, but- I know ...
Barbara: uh. I know, but e- you know, it’s, there are so many things to read, you know, from, like agents, editors, readers, all have so many things to choose from, and so it’s just so important to nail that first page, you know?
Jennie: How many times do you rewrite your first pages?
Barbara: Oh my gosh, so many times. So many times. Yeah. Yeah, well, um, ‘cause usually I write the first page, and then I write the rest of the book, and then I’m like, “Oh, like, the rest of the book does something different. I need to go back and, like, make this first page...”
Also, I do, I often do the thing that I think a lot of writers do, which is, [00:43:00] once you’ve written a little bit further, you realize that, like, you’ve started at the wrong spot. Um, I mean, the, one of, one of the things that helps me when I, when I think to do it is to use one of the exercises that’s in, that’s in your work, where you, where you start what, you, you write the beginning and the ending before you even start anything.
Um, and I, I, when I remember to do that the right way, that really, definitely helps me. Um, but I don’t always remember to do that, and so I have, like, partway in, and then I’m like, “Wait, no, the first page.” So,
Jennie: it’s- Well, that, yeah, that’s a, um, a step in the blueprint for a book book. Um, it’s a good one, for sure.
Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for, for this, Kathleen, and congratulations on the new book. Um, for everyone listening, go check out, you can find everything at KathleenBarber.com. And, um, you can find Sisterhood Above All, which is brand new and just out and sounds like so much [00:44:00] fun. I, it’s on my TBR, TBR.
Yay. I just can’t read, I just can’t read thrillers at night. I get too scared. So,
Barbara: um-
Jennie: That’s
Barbara: fair. That’s fair ...
Jennie: I, I have to wait till I’m, like, on a plane or, um, you know, somewhere where I’m reading during the day. Yeah. Is this one, is this one l- scary scary?
Barbara: I mean, it’s, it’s not, like, scary scary. It’s, it’s not, like, uh- It’s, it’s not like there’s someone who’s out there to kill you for reasons that you cannot control.
You know what I mean? Like, it’s like- Yeah, yeah ... it would be scary to the people inside the book, but it should not be scary to you. But
Jennie: I understand how- Well, we don’t need to reas- We don’t need to reassure me because people love these, love these- Yeah ... and, uh, what a fun, fun setting and setup for- Thank you
a thriller. It’s, it’s exciting. Thanks. So can’t wait to see how, how the world receives it. And- Mm ... um, I always hate to say this to somebody whose book just came out, but can’t wait to see what you do next. [00:45:00]
Barbara: Don’t worry, I’m already writing
Jennie: stuff. Oh, yeah. Do you, ooh, do you wanna, do you wanna tell or no?
Barbara: I, I do not, just ‘cause I get really superstitious about it, but, um, but I have something that I’m working on that I’m excited about, so you know, we’ll see how it goes.
Jennie: I love it. Well, thank you for joining us for Book Life, Jennifer.
Barbara: Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.
Jennie: For our listeners, let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.
Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:46:00] work


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Jennie Nash hosts a hot seat coaching episode with #amwriting producer Andrew Perrella, who shares a 5,000-word draft of his Gothic vampire novel to be offered to paid subscribers. Jennie praises the draft as unusually strong and “authoritative,” then coaches Andrew on higher-level editorial concerns: pacing, density of information before the action, and adding more interiority so readers understand Abrianna’s reactions and risk-taking, especially her choice to follow a vampire into an alley.
They discuss the funeral setting, the presence of major characters (including an executor and Seward), and the theme that multiple people are watching Abrianna while the reader lacks key knowledge (including that the vampire is her mother). Jennie recommends using and updating the blueprint as a living “as-is” outline to track reveals, and they set a four-week deadline for Andrew to deliver 50 pages plus the blueprint.