Unchained

Welcome to The Chopping Block, where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, and Tarun Chitra chop it up about the latest in crypto. Robert is out this week.

The hosts start with Vitalik's claim that ETH should be valued as a store of value rather than a fee chain. Tarun says it feels like giving up on the infinite garden, Haseeb says it finally makes the L2s make sense, and Tom says a store of value has to be earned by not changing. Haseeb argues Bitcoin is way behind on quantum and that this is Ethereum's best shot, Tarun makes the case that Zcash has the better store of value story, and Haseeb bets AIs will pick Ethereum for its predictable governance. Then a former EF employee sues the Foundation and Vitalik over the Mandate and its seppuku license, and Tom calls it the twilight of the EF. Next, the report tying Jensen Huang to an alleged Chinese intelligence asset at Megaspeed and what it does to the chip export fight, Tarun's game of who in crypto would be the most surprising person to get honeypotted, and Tarun standing up for North Korea. They close on Trump's interview about World Liberty Financial and Patrick McHenry blaming Coinbase for CLARITY.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 Vitalik says ETH is a store of value, not a fee chain. ETH fell about 4% the day he said it.

🔹 Tarun says a store of value pitch feels like giving up on the infinite garden: gold 2.1 if Bitcoin is gold 2.0.

🔹 Haseeb says the L2 maximalism thesis only works if ETH is a store of value; otherwise the L2s are parasitic.

🔹 Tom says Bitcoin earned its credibility by being hard to change, and ETH has changed its emission curve too many times.

🔹 Haseeb's leaky bucket: blockchains struggle to capture the value they create, while AI just charges by the token.

🔹 Haseeb says Bitcoin is way behind on quantum and expects a reshuffling of value within two to three years.

🔹 Tarun argues Zcash has the better store of value story: proof of work, privacy, and post-quantum security.

🔹 Haseeb bets AIs will pick Ethereum for its predictable governance.

🔹 A former EF employee sues the Foundation and Vitalik over the Mandate and its seppuku license.

🔹 Haseeb's advice to founders, and the EF: innovate on one thing and keep everything else vanilla.

🔹 Tarun: guys, it's not 2017 anymore. Tom says we're in the twilight of the EF.

🔹 The report tying Jensen Huang to an alleged Chinese spy at Megaspeed, and why Haseeb thinks it ends the chip export debate.

🔹 Tarun asks who in crypto would be the most surprising person to get honeypotted. Haseeb: you get honeypotted as a service in crypto.

🔹 Haseeb's PSA: if you're dating any Chinese resellers of your GPUs, keep it extracurricular.

🔹 Tarun stands up for North Korea, and Tom calls them the original agents.

🔹 Trump on World Liberty Financial: it's not corrupt because he knows nothing about it.

🔹 Patrick McHenry blames Coinbase for CLARITY, and Tarun reads it as a lobbyist pointing at who's next.

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot VenturesDisclosures

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

01:49 Is ETH Digital Gold?

10:19 Bitcoin's Quantum Problem

14:01 The Case for Zcash

19:22 The EF Seppuku Lawsuit

28:39 Jensen and the Alleged Spy

37:21 Who Gets Honeypotted?

44:01 Trump on World Liberty

48:02 McHenry Blames Coinbase
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bitwise CIO Matt Hougan says crypto bottomed in June, argues the blue wave may not matter, and lays out the math behind Bitcoin at $1.6 million.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

Put your crypto to work with Nexo: earn daily interest or borrow funds against your assets on one platform trusted by more than 10 million clients.

Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-sn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Geo-restrictions, eligibility and terms apply.

========================================================

Crypto just absorbed the biggest hack in its history, a $6.3 billion theft from Binance, plus a Democratic sweep of Congress that dims the odds for the Clarity Act. Bitcoin barely flinched.

Matt Hougan, Chief Investment Officer of Bitwise, tells Laura Shin why he thinks the market bottomed in June and why bad news has stopped mattering. He lays out three AI scenarios he says all end well for Bitcoin, why institutions aren't asking about hacks, and why the average Bitwise client only allocates after eight meetings.

They also cover the quantum threat to Satoshi's coins, why a few dozen public companies opted out of tokenized trading, Hyperliquid as the Amazon of finance, and whether to own Bitcoin or Zcash. Hougan closes with the store-of-value math behind Bitwise's call for a $1.6 million Bitcoin by 2036, a forecast more bullish than JPMorgan's.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Matt Hougan - Chief Investment Officer of Bitwise

Timestamps

🎬 00:00 Intro

📈 00:56 Why Matt thinks crypto bottomed in June and bad news stopped mattering

🤖 02:53 Why Matt says every AI scenario, boom or bust, ends well for Bitcoin

💰 10:14 Nexo: Generate daily interest on your crypto or borrow funds against your assets at https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-yt

🏛️ 10:31 What the Democratic blue wave means for crypto and why DeFi is most at risk

🔐 17:18 Why institutions aren't worried about hacks, and Bitwise's 'rule of 8'

⚛️ 24:07 Quantum: why Satoshi's coins are the risk that keeps Matt up at night

📊 27:04 Why companies are opting out of tokenized stocks, and NYSE's Avalanche pick

🛒 35:44 How Hyperliquid echoes Amazon, and the risk of a US-only money internet

🚀 42:14 The store-of-value math behind Bitwise's $1.6 million Bitcoin call

🛡️ 49:00 Bitcoin or Zcash? Why Matt would own both, plus which tokenomics work
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to The Chopping Block, where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week Haseeb is back in the host's chair after two weeks away.

The hosts start with a16z Crypto becoming a16z Frontier, and Robert remembers how Twitter bullied Paradigm for trying the same thing in 2023. Then the midterms: a blue mega tsunami that Polymarket had called at 99% by 7 PM, Robert's case that the polls missed the size of the wave yet again, and what a new Congress that is roughly 2:1 pro-crypto means when the next two years are about Trump corruption, World Liberty Financial, and Trump Coin. The CFTC clears single-stock perps and Cboe and Citadel sue within hours, which Tarun can't make sense of as a market maker. Anthropic's S-1 update adds recursive self-improvement as a risk factor, the data center states go blue, and Robert explains why hedge funds think less compute is good for the frontier labs. Finally, the Foundation for American Innovation calls abliterated AI models a threat, and the hosts argue that banning them is prior restraint in the middle of a cyber apocalypse.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 Haseeb is back after two weeks of Rob Hadick in his seat.

🔹 a16z Crypto is now a16z Frontier. Robert says when Paradigm tried the same thing in 2023, Twitter bullied it right back to crypto.

🔹 The midterms were a blue mega tsunami, and Polymarket had 99% on total control of Congress by 7 PM.

🔹 Robert says the polls underweighted the Democrats yet again, and the markets underpriced the wave because they tracked the polls.

🔹 Robert's one test for Trump on crypto: did he make America the crypto capital of the world? His answer: not really.

🔹 Haseeb runs the Stand With Crypto numbers: the new Congress is roughly 2:1 pro-crypto in both the House and the Senate.

🔹 Robert expects a pragmatic, moderate Congress, and close to zero chance of any crypto legislation in the next two years.

🔹 Tarun loves that Robert thinks Donald Trump believes in mean reversion.

🔹 Robert declares the show done talking about DC for two years. It lasts about a minute.

🔹 The CFTC clears single-stock perps, Cboe and Citadel sue within hours, and Tarun can't see why a market maker would turn down free volume.

🔹 Anthropic's S-1 update shows $17 billion in Q3 revenue and adds recursive self-improvement as a risk factor.

🔹 Robert explains why hedge funds think fewer new data centers is good for the frontier labs, and Tom says they bought all the chickens.

🔹 Tarun says the non-US compute build-out has 100X'd in two weeks.

🔹 Robert proposes renaming the show The Chipping Block.

🔹 FAI calls abliterated AI models a threat. Haseeb says security researchers depend on them, and banning them is prior restraint.

🔹 Tom went as Claude Hansen for Halloween, and Claude refused to write the prop.

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

⭐️Robert Leshner, Founder & CEO of Superstate

Timestamps

00:00 Cold Open

00:41 Intro

02:51 a16z Goes Frontier

05:42 The Midterm Mega Tsunami

15:39 Crypto's New Congress

29:10 CFTC Clears Equity Perps

34:14 Anthropic's S-1 Update

35:35 Data Centers Go Blue

43:15 The Chipping Block

43:44 The Abliteration Threat

55:35 Wrap
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Democrats won both chambers in a historic midterm wave. Mike Katz and Justin Slaughter on what that means for the Clarity Act, DeFi and crypto's next 2 years.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

Put your crypto to work with Nexo: earn daily interest or borrow funds against your assets on one platform trusted by more than 10 million clients.

Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-sn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Geo-restrictions, eligibility and terms apply.

========================================================

Quick favor: We’re deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what’s worth paying for.

Our ⁠⁠listener survey⁠⁠ takes five minutes, it’s anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who finishes it gets a free month of Premium, Unchained or Bits + Bips, your pick. Open through Sunday, November 8.

— Laura

========================================================

Democrats swept both chambers of Congress in the midterms, winning the popular vote by 13 points, according to Justin Slaughter. For an industry still waiting on a market structure law, the question is what a Democratic Congress now does with crypto.

Slaughter, Senior Advisor at Paradigm and Board Member of the Long-Term Stock Exchange, and Mike Katz, Partner of Leading Frontier Tech at Manatt, join Laura Shin to explain why the Clarity Act looks dead, what a House Financial Services market structure bill may contain, whether SEC and CFTC rules survive, and how Elizabeth Warren at Senate Banking could steer oversight of the Trump family's crypto deals.

They also cover the banks' pressure on Genius Act rulemaking, a Texas data center pause and what it means for Bitcoin miners, and why Fairshake spending $56 million against Sherrod Brown, who still won, may force crypto to rethink its political strategy before 2028.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Mike Katz - Partner of Leading Frontier Tech at Manatt

Justin Slaughter - Senior Advisor at Paradigm and Board Member of the Long-Term Stock Exchange

Timestamps

🎬 00:00 Intro

📋 00:28 Unchained Survey: tell us what Unchained should do next in the listener survey at https://unchainedcrypto.com/survey

🎙️ 01:30 Bits + Bips: search Bits + Bips and subscribe to the weekly crypto and macro show at https://www.youtube.com/@Bitsandbips

🌊 01:46 What a Democratic sweep of both chambers means for crypto's next 2 years

📜 06:52 Why Justin says Clarity looks dead and what a House Dem bill could contain

🏛️ 10:24 Will Atkins' SEC and Selig's CFTC crypto rules survive a Democratic Congress?

💼 14:26 Nexo: Generate daily interest on your crypto or borrow funds against your assets at https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-yt

🪑 15:16 What Warren at Senate Banking and Brown at Ag could mean for crypto

🔍 27:01 How Democrats could probe the Trump family's crypto deals and World Liberty

🪙 37:22 Why Mike warns banks could use the new Congress to hobble the Genius Act

⚡ 40:18 What Texas governor-elect Hinojosa's data center pause means for Bitcoin miners

💰 43:15 Fairshake's $56M bet against Brown: why Justin calls super PACs 'a crutch'
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The $6B Binance hack sent stolen funds through Aave. LlamaRisk CEO Adam Sadowski walks through the market freeze and why nothing was taken from the protocol.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

Put your crypto to work with Nexo: earn daily interest or borrow funds against your assets on one platform trusted by more than 10 million clients.

Find out more at⁠⁠⁠ Nexo⁠⁠⁠.

Geo-restrictions, eligibility and terms apply.

========================================================

Quick favor: We’re deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what’s worth paying for.

Our ⁠listener survey⁠ takes five minutes, it’s anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who finishes it gets a free month of Premium, Unchained or Bits + Bips, your pick. Open through Sunday, November 8.

— Laura

========================================================

North Korean hackers pulled roughly $6 billion out of Binance, and within minutes Tether and Circle were freezing stablecoins as the attackers raced to swap into ETH, routing part of the haul through Aave.

Adam Sadowski, CEO of LlamaRisk, Aave's risk provider, joins Kain Warwick and Taylor Monahan to walk through the overnight market freeze, why nothing was stolen from Aave, and whether anyone should be able to deposit $1 billion and borrow all the ETH in a single block.

They also cover Aave's 4-of-7 guardian multisig, AI agents hunting for exploits, why Kain says there is no such thing as the price of an asset, how an AI model helped Synthetix recover 9 million stolen SNX, and Taylor's warning after THORChain processed nearly $200 million for North Korea despite an FBI callout. Once a protocol has the power to stop a theft, can it still choose not to?

Hosts:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Uneasy Money and Founder of Infinex and Synthetix

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Uneasy Money and Security Expert⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Adam Sadowski - CEO of LlamaRisk

Timestamps

🎬 00:00 Intro

📋 00:22 Unchained Survey: complete the listener survey at https://unchainedcrypto.com/survey

🎙️ 01:17 Bits + Bips: search Bits + Bips and subscribe to our weekly crypto and macro show at https://www.youtube.com/@Bitsandbips

🚨 01:49 The $6B Binance hack and how Tether and Circle froze funds in minutes

🔍 10:16 How the Binance hacker routed $60M in USDT through Aave to borrow ETH

⚖️ 14:16 Should anyone be able to deposit $1B and borrow all the ETH in one block?

💰 23:18 Nexo: Generate daily interest on your crypto or borrow funds against your assets at https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-yt

🤝 24:00 Why Kain ranks the Binance response among crypto's best anti-heist efforts

🛡️ 27:51 Aave's guardians, risk stewards, and the race against AI exploit agents

🧩 31:40 Why Kain thinks adding complexity is the most dangerous move for Aave

📈 37:23 Who decides the price? Oracles, tokenized stocks, and Chainlink CRE

🪙 44:57 How an AI model found Synthetix a way to recover 9M stolen SNX

⛓️ 54:42 How a one-block Ethereum reorg made THORChain double spend mid-hack

🚔 01:00:41 Why Taylor fears the FBI callout could send Thor node operators to prison

🏦 01:07:24 A French bank heist, ZachXBT, and the $30M that couldn't be frozen
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices