Unchained

Pre-IPO trading is hot ahead of three big IPOs. Perp volume on Hyperliquid went from $3M to $44M in three months, and SpaceX perps is just the beginning, says Dio Casares of Patagon.

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Pre-IPO perp volume on Hyperliquid grew from $3 million to $44 million in roughly three months.

Anthropic and OpenAI voided secondary shares, sending shockwaves through the pre-IPO marketes. Robinhood launched trust-style tokenized offerings into a gray area. And three trillion-dollar IPOs — SpaceX, Anthropic, and OpenAI — are converging in the same window.

Dio Casares, founder and CEO of Patagon, a private neobank that has facilitated deals in Anthropic, xAI, Circle, and Kraken, explains the structural difference between derivatives and tokenized spot, why second and third-layer SPV waterfalls are legal hot potato, who actually holds the cleanest title, and where the competition for private market liquidity goes next.

Host:


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:


⁠Dio Casares - Founder & CEO, Patagon

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Top Ethereum Foundation staff are leaving. Why? Also, Trade.xyz launched a synthetic pre-IPO SpaceX perp on Hyperliquid that further shows RWAs moving onchain.

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A synthetic SpaceX perpetual futures contract launched on Hyperliquid ahead of any IPO, jumping 44% before settling back down. Kain and Tay unpack what it means when a dress rehearsal for one of the biggest potential IPOs in years generates $33 million in trading volume.

Then: the Ethereum Foundation exodus. Trent Van Epps, Josh Stark, Barnabé Monnot, Tim Beiko, and Carl Beek are out. Kain’s theory: longtime Ethereum “missionaries” were given hope for change under Tomasz Stanczak, only to see that momentum fade.

Finally, three DeFi exploits in four days, including a Thorchain attack that Taylor reconstructed in real time using AI tools during incident response — ending with a fully working attack demo she never asked for.

Host:


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Founder of Infinex and Synthetix


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Security Expert


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Luca Netz⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, CEO of Pudgy Penguins

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Kevin Warsh wants a smaller Fed balance sheet and fewer dot plots. Noelle Acheson says the bond market won't let him have either. Here's what she expects instead.

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Bond yields are climbing globally while stock markets push higher on AI optimism — and Noelle Acheson, author of the Crypto Is Macro Now newsletter, argues the divergence is not a contradiction but a warning. In her read, inflation was building before the Hormuz crisis, the BLISS trade has permanently replaced the TACO trade as the structural put under markets, and Kevin Warsh is walking into a Fed that the bond market controls more than he does. She also flags a contrarian indicator nobody is talking about: the gap between the cap-weighted S&P 500 and the equal-weight index is widening at a pace last seen in 1999.

Host:


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Steve Ehrlich, Head of Research at SharpLink and Host of Bits + Bips: The Interview - https://x.com/Steven_Ehrlich

Guest:


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Noelle Acheson | Author, Crypto Is Macro Now newsletter

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KK, Jessi, and Vy Le call out the silence from CoinDesk and industry organizations after the Consensus after-party was held at  E11even. Plus: Clarity’s odds.

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The CLARITY Act cleared the Senate Banking Committee 15-9, but Katherine, Jessi, and Vy Le are not popping champagne. 

KK puts passage odds at 35-40%. Vy Le came down from 90% after only two conditional Democratic votes out of committee. The ethics fight — whether any bill that leaves Trump family crypto holdings intact can get to 60 votes — remains the most credible blocker. 

Meanwhile, WallStreetBets filed an SEC comment letter defending quarterly reporting that inadvertently makes the strongest case yet for why onchain transparency makes periodic disclosure obsolete. And the crew addresses the Consensus conference after-party, held at E11even, which features strippers: not a word from most of the trade organizations that claim to represent the industry.

Hosts:


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at StarkWare. Previously held senior legal roles across DeFi and centralized exchanges.


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jessi Brooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Ribbit Capital


⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TuongVy Le⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Veda

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Rebecca from Jito Labs joins Haseeb, Tom, and Tarun for a regulation deep-dive covering the CLARITY Act's stablecoin yield compromise and presidential ethics sticking points, CME and ICE's lobbying war against Hyperliquid's RWA perps, the prediction market legal battle heading to the Supreme Court, and whether the SEC's tokenized securities innovation exemption will actually matter.

Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week, joining us is Rebecca Rettig, Chief Legal Officer at Jito Labs, who's here to help the crew make sense of the absolute regulatory tornado tearing through the industry.

First up: the CLARITY Act. It just got out of Senate Banking Committee, but the road to passage is anything but smooth. The stablecoin yield fight with banks ended in a "do stuff yield" compromise, but presidential ethics provisions remain the last polarizing hurdle. Rebecca breaks down what actually changes for token founders if it passes — spoiler: not much immediately, since rulemaking alone could take years.

Then: CME and ICE have declared war on Hyperliquid, lobbying the Hill to force CFTC registration on the decentralized perps giant. The crew debates who actually wins US regulated perps, whether Hyperliquid's pre-IPO markets represent a genuine threat to investment banking, and Rebecca introduces "on-chain finance" — a distinction the panel immediately roasts her for.

Finally: prediction markets are in a legal bloodbath across state courts with a Supreme Court showdown likely by 2027, and the SEC's tokenized securities innovation exemption has Twitter buzzing but Rebecca skeptical. Let's get into it.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 CLARITY Act Passes Senate Banking – Landmark crypto bill advances with bipartisan support, but presidential ethics provisions remain the final sticking point before a full Senate floor vote.

🔹 Stablecoin Yield Compromise – Banks screamed bloody murder, but the "do stuff yield" deal means transaction-based rewards are in and bank deposit lookalikes are out.

🔹 CME & ICE vs Hyperliquid – Traditional exchanges lobby Congress to force CFTC registration, KYC/AML, and trade surveillance on the decentralized perps giant.

🔹 Hyperliquid Prices Cerebras Better Than Bankers – Pre-IPO market nails the opening price while investment banks undershoot by over 100%, raising questions about the future of book building.

🔹 Rebecca Rettig Returns – Jito Labs CLO breaks down what CLARITY actually means for token founders (spoiler: not much changes immediately — rulemaking takes years).

🔹 Prediction Markets Head to SCOTUS – Legal bloodbath across state courts likely culminates in a Supreme Court showdown by 2027 over CFTC vs state gaming jurisdiction.

🔹 The Super Bowl Coin Toss Traded at 58/42 – Tarun surfaces the most absurd prediction market of the year, and the CFTC chair basically says it shouldn't exist.

🔹 Who Wins US Regulated Perps? – Haseeb bets on Coinbase and Robinhood, Tarun argues there's an opening for a dark horse, and Rebecca flags HIP 4's unified margin as a game-changer.

🔹 SEC Innovation Exemption Buzz – Twitter is hyped about tokenized securities guidance, but Rebecca is skeptical it drops before CLARITY is resolved.

🔹 OnFi Is Not Going to Happen – Rebecca tries to coin "on-chain finance" as distinct from DeFi. The panel roasts her. Mean Girls memes are inevitable.

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly 

Guest⭐️ Rebecca Rettig, Jurisprudential Genius at Jito Labs

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

02:10 The CLARITY Act: Banks vs Crypto

05:21 The "Do Stuff Yield" Compromise

07:18 The Compromise: Transaction-Based Rewards

10:22 Presidential Ethics: The Last Sticking Point

12:26 What Actually Changes If CLARITY Passes?

16:01 Token Founders: What Do You Have to Do?

18:41 Developer Protection & DeFi Activity

20:15 CME & ICE Lobbying Against Hyperliquid

26:05 On-Chain Finance vs DeFi

29:57 Who Wins US Regulated Perps?

34:39 ETF Options vs Crypto Perps

40:24 What Hyperliquid Means for Investment Banking

44:50 Retail IPO Participation & Dynamic Share Counts

49:25 Prediction Markets: Kalshi & Polymarket vs the States

51:40 Supreme Court Showdown: CFTC vs State Gaming Laws

58:30 Economic Impact Test 

01:01:47 Tokenized Securities & the SEC Innovation Exemption

01:06:41 Do Issuers Actually Care About Tokenization?

Disclosures
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