Unchained

The CME is suing its own regulator over how perps get classified, and the ruling decides who in the US can trade them. Three lawyers make the case for futures over swaps.

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The CME is suing its own regulator. At stake is a single word: is a perpetual futures contract a swap, locked to institutional trading desks, or a future, open to any retail trader in the US?

Cathy Yoon, General Counsel at Temporal, Tiffany J. Smith, Partner at WilmerHale, and Jake Chervinsky, CEO of Hyperliquid Policy Center, join Laura Shin at the Real World Assets Summit to make the case for futures. The CME was invited onto the panel to argue its side, but Yoon called their last-minute decision to bow out as "cowardice."

They dig into the CFTC's recent approval of true perpetual futures for Coinbase and Kalshi, the running jurisdictional split between the CFTC and SEC, and Bloomberg's report that Hyperliquid is in talks to come onshore through Kraken's Bitnomial.

Chervinsky argues Hyperliquid isn't an exchange at all, just neutral infrastructure any exchange could use.

Yoon closes with a warning: most of Capitol Hill, she says, still doesn't understand there's a whole world running onchain.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Cathy Yoon - General Counsel of Temporal

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tiffany J. Smith - Partner at WilmerHale and Co-Chair of its Blockchain & Cryptocurrency Working Group

Jake Chervinsky - CEO of Hyperliquid Policy Center

Timestamps

⚖️ 02:24 Why the CME is suing the CFTC over classifying perps as futures or swaps

🌍 13:00 Why RWA perps overtook crypto perps, and who ends up regulating them

📣 18:03 1inch: See how Aqua's shared liquidity platform puts idle capital to work at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-yt

🌐 20:42 Is Hyperliquid an exchange or neutral infrastructure? Jake makes his case

🏛️ 26:10 If you were the regulator: how each panelist would design fair rules for perps
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OpenAI's AI agents already had the exam answers. So why did they hack Hugging Face anyway? Kain, Tay, and Austin Griffith explain.

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OpenAI's AI agents didn't just get caught cheating on a security test. According to the postmortem, they already had the answers, and hacked Hugging Face's systems not to cheat, but to learn who was scoring them and cover their tracks.

Kain Warwick and Taylor Monahan bring on Austin Griffith, Builder Enablement at the Ethereum Foundation, to work through what that cover-up actually means, and why Griffith thinks Nick Bostrom's twenty-year-old paperclip thought experiment stopped being hypothetical the moment agents started writing production-grade code.

They also cover the tokenized HIMS stock pump, Rune's fake $100 million NASDAQ LARP, Kyle Samani's abrupt exit from Multicoin, and the Cronos validators who rolled back a hack.

If agents can trick each other to avoid detection, what happens once they're running your portfolio, or your toaster?

Hosts:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kain Warwick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Uneasy Money and Founder of Infinex and Synthetix

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Taylor Monahan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Uneasy Money and Security Expert

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Griffith - Builder Enablement at the Ethereum Foundation and Founder of BuidlGuidl

Timestamps

📈 01:09 How degens pumped BONER and HIMS on Robinhood Chain

📱 11:39 Austin calls FOMO's tokenized-stock UX crypto's smoothest onboarding yet

💧 25:51 1inch Aqua: See how it works at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-yt

🎭 26:37 Rune's fake $100M NASDAQ short squeeze LARP

🍄 33:39 The Chinese mushroom stock trading at an on-chain premium

🤖 34:46 OpenAI agents already had the answers and hacked to hide it

⚠️ 51:04 Bostrom's paperclip problem, 20 years later

🧠 54:20 Kain on the Claude 5.1 mixup that proved he can't tell the models apart

💸 01:04:13 Kyle Samani's $100 million 'line' with Multicoin

🔄 01:07:01 Cronos rolls back a $100M hack, and Moonwell gets hit again
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Laura joins Haseeb, Tom, and Tarun to unpack Robinhood Chain's surge, the strange fusion of stock tokens and memecoins, the damage speculative entertainment can do to retail, Solana's competitive position, and why regulated onchain markets will still look different across jurisdictions.

Welcome to The Chopping Block, where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, and Tarun Chitra are joined by Laura Shin to chop it up about the latest in crypto.

The panel examines Robinhood Chain's second wave, stock-backed memecoins built from old DeFi mechanics, the line between financial entertainment and retail harm, the race with Solana, and the legal constraints facing global onchain markets.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 Robinhood Chain's activity spikes as FOMO, tokenized stocks, and memecoins converge in one retail product.

🔹 Tarun explains how Ohm-style mechanics can pair a memecoin incentive with an underlying stock token.

🔹 The crew compares the new speculation to DeFi summer, GameStop, and what they call financial Jackass.

🔹 Haseeb argues that traders should ask an AI whether a supposed retail short squeeze can work before handing over their keys.

🔹 Laura separates the cultural appeal of speculative entertainment from the real damage repeated losses can do to retail confidence.

🔹 The panel asks whether Robinhood captured the tokenized-stock opportunity that Solana pioneered too early.

🔹 Tom and Tarun compare American FOMO culture with the more explicitly profit-driven social-trading pitches they heard in Asia.

🔹 The group explains why KYC is only one part of bringing HIP-3 markets onshore, alongside clearing, surveillance, collateral, and local law.

Host

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

Guest

⭐️Laura Shin, Foun of Unchained and CEO of the Show

Disclosures

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

00:58 Robinhood Chain's big wave

04:00 Ohm forks & stock-backed memecoins

10:50 Financial Jackass & generational speculation

15:13 DeFi code gets a second life

19:10 Does memecoin trading entertain or destroy retail?

34:37 Dream stock-memecoin pairings

36:12 Is Robinhood Chain overshadowing Solana?

44:19 Building FOMO for Asian markets

50:35 Hyperliquid in talks with Kraken parent

52:59 What regulated HIP-3 markets would require

58:26 Why global onchain markets still face local law
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📢 Bits + Bips has its own channel now — full episodes here: https://www.youtube.com/@Bitsandbips

A Ninth Circuit panel ruled 3-0 that Nevada can enforce its gambling laws against Kalshi's sports contracts, directly conflicting with an April ruling that put Kalshi under CFTC oversight instead.

Andy Ross, Head of Institutional at Kalshi, joins the panel to make the case that prediction markets are nothing like sportsbooks, that Kalshi wants its winners to keep winning, and that its fastest-growing customers are not hedge funds but ice cream shops, kayak renters, and boat charter operators hedging ordinary business risk.

Hosts:

Austin Campbell - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

Ram Ahluwalia - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida

Chris Perkins - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

Guest:

Andy Ross - Head of Institutional at Kalshi

This clip is from a longer conversation on Kalshi's clash with state regulators over prediction markets. Full episode here: https://youtu.be/c5qwxUlaKQ4?si=9vIZPp0imIyuJIs3

We go live every Monday - subscribe to catch it live.

👉 Visit 1inch to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-sn.

Chapters:

⚖️ 00:20 Ninth Circuit rules 3-0 that Nevada can enforce gambling law against Kalshi

🎯 02:16 Andy on why prediction markets are not sportsbooks

🏛️ 04:44 Chris asks whether the CFTC believes it has federal preemption

🍦 06:21 Andy on ice cream shops, kayak renters, and boat charters hedging with Kalshi

📊 08:10 Ram asks where Kalshi's real trading volume actually comes from

🔬 09:21 Andy unveils Kalshi's 2.2 million-data-point calibration study
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Bitcoin rallied 23% after Bessent's debt-buyback comments and settled near $80K. Swan's Cory Klippsten weighs in on what ETF inflows and onchain exchange moves really mean.

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========================================================Bitcoin rallied 23 percent in a week after Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said the government would double its long-term debt buybacks, settling near $80,000 without a leverage-driven blowoff. ETFs pulled in about $3 billion over two weeks, even as onchain data showed coins moving toward exchanges.

Cory Klippsten, founder and CEO of Swan, joins Laura Shin to discuss why he distrusts popular Bitcoin forecasting tools. He calls stock-to-flow and power-law price models unfalsifiable "false gods" that leave holders with paper hands, and dismisses the quantum-computing scare as manufactured hype tied to 2025's penny-stock schemes. Yet he insists onchain self-custody is where value lives.

The two weigh the ColdCard hack, which cost self-custody wallets roughly 1,400 coins, against larger losses at Mt. Gox, Celsius, and Quadriga. Klippsten covers Swan's RBX tool for converting GBTC into real Bitcoin, the custody spectrum topped by Swan Trinity, and why nobody will know for decades whether Bitcoin's fee market can replace its shrinking block reward.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Cory Klippsten - Founder and CEO of Swan

Timestamps

📈 01:00 Cory Klippsten ties Bitcoin's $80K rally to Bessent's Treasury buyback move

📊 04:20 Laura asks about $3B in ETF inflows versus Bitcoin moving to exchanges

🔮 06:23 Cory debunks stock-to-flow and power law models for Bitcoin's price

🌊 14:23 1inch Aqua: See how LPs back multiple positions with one token balance and cover more pairs at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-sn

🔐 15:13 Cory reacts to the ColdCard hack that drained over 1,000 Bitcoin

🔄 20:10 Swan's RBX lets holders convert GBTC shares into real Bitcoin tax efficiently

🗂️ 25:20 Cory maps a 5-step custody spectrum from self-custody to multi-institution

⚛️ 31:34 Cory calls the Bitcoin quantum threat panic 'manufactured bullshit'

🪙 35:19 Cory rejects freezing or tail-emitting Satoshi's coins, backs the fee market
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