Healthcare Interior Design 2.0

"Can we design a small enough hospital where the intimacy of care matches the human scale, more
residential than institutional?" — Mike McKay on the Healthcare Interior Design 2.0 podcast
On today's episode of Healthcare Interior Design 2.0, Cheryl welcomes Mike McKay, AIA, ACHE, EDAC, LEED AP, Healthcare Market Sector Leader at Erdman.
Mike's relationship with architecture began early — really early. In kindergarten, he was already building little cities in his basement to the scale of his Matchbox cars. Years later, during his last year at Ball State, a difficult four-day hospital stay gave him a deeply personal understanding of how healthcare environments can affect patients — and why, as Mike says, "we can do better."
Cheryl and Mike explore Erdman's fascinating roots through founder Marshall Erdman, whose relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright helped shape the firm's early thinking around design, construction, prefabrication, and integrated project delivery. They also discuss Erdman's 1950s Doctors Park concept, a forward-thinking model that brought multiple physician practices together in a more accessible, community-based setting.
The conversation also touches on Beverly Willis, FAIA, women in Frank Lloyd Wright's studio, Erdman's "under one roof" legacy, and the role of daylight, nature, evidence-based design, collaboration, and human scale in healthcare environments.
At the heart of the episode is a question that feels both simple and profound: can we design healthcare environments where the intimacy of care actually matches the human scale?
In this episode, Cheryl and Mike discuss:
Mike's early path into architecture and healthcare design

How a difficult personal patient experience shaped Mike's healthcare design perspective

Marshall Erdman's relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright

Erdman's early work on the First Unitarian Society Meeting House in Madison

Prefabrication, industrialized construction, and Erdman's "under one roof" approach

Doctors Park and the early evolution of community-based healthcare design

Beverly Willis, women in Frank Lloyd Wright's studio, and women's leadership in healthcare design

How Erdman's integrated project delivery mindset continues to influence the firm today

Why healthcare projects need a clear "why" before design begins

Data-informed design, advisory services, and strategic planning in healthcare

The importance of daylight, nature, gardens, comfort, and domestic-scale spaces

Why healthcare design must consider inward-facing and outward-facing spaces differently

Mike's reflections on favorite Erdman projects, including senior living, emergency care, pediatric oncology, and behavioral health

The importance of human scale in hospitals and healthcare environments

Why the client, patient, staff, and community experience must remain at the center of every project

KEY TAKEAWAYS
Mike McKay's path into healthcare design was shaped by both professional opportunity and personal experience. An early hospital stay as a young architecture student left him with a vivid memory of how healthcare environments can affect patients — and a belief that design can do better.

Erdman's roots are deeply connected to founder Marshall Erdman's relationship with Frank Lloyd Wright, beginning with Erdman's work as the contractor for Wright's First Unitarian Society Meeting House in Madison, Wisconsin.

Marshall Erdman was ahead of his time in thinking about integrated project delivery, prefabrication, industrialized construction, affordability, quality, and the total cost of ownership.

Erdman's early Doctors Park concept was a forward-thinking healthcare model for the 1950s, bringing multiple physician practices together in an accessible, community-based setting at a time when many physicians worked from downtown offices, hospitals, or even made house calls.

The firm's "under one roof" model — bringing planning, design, construction, delivery, and advisory thinking together — continues to influence Erdman's culture, even as the firm has evolved beyond its earlier design-build structure.

Mike emphasizes that healthcare projects need a clear "why." A project should be the right project, in the right place, at the right time, and sustainable for the owner and the community it serves.

Women have played an important role in Erdman's history and continue to shape healthcare design today, particularly through interior design, architecture, patient perspective, and multidisciplinary collaboration.

Healthcare environments need to be designed at a human scale. Mike challenges the tendency to create large, complicated healthcare footprints that designers then spend enormous energy trying to humanize.

Daylight, nature, gardens, respite, views, and access to the outdoors are not decorative extras. They are essential to how patients, families, and staff experience care.

Interior design and interior architecture are especially important in healthcare spaces that cannot always have daylight or views, such as imaging, treatment, or technology-heavy environments.

Mike's work and thinking are grounded in evidence-based design, patient-centered design, and multidisciplinary collaboration.

At the heart of Mike's message is a reminder that healthcare design is not about the architect's ego or the firm's portfolio. It is about the people who use the building: patients, families, staff, clinicians, owners, and communities.

RESOURCES MENTIONED
ERDMAN
https://www.erdman.com/

Mike McKay, AIA, ACHE, EDAC, LEED AP, NCARB — ERDMAN
https://www.erdman.com/about/mike-mckay-aia-ache-edac-leed-ap-ncarb/

Uncommon Sense: The Life of Marshall Erdman
https://www.amazon.com/Uncommon-Sense-Life-Marshall-Erdman/dp/1931599319

First Unitarian Society Meeting House
https://www.unitarianmeetinghouse.org/

Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation — Unitarian Meeting House
https://franklloydwright.org/site/unitarian-meeting-house/

Beverly Willis Architecture Foundation
https://bwaf.org/

A Girl is a Fellow Here: 100 Women Architects in the Studio of Frank Lloyd Wright
https://bwaf.org/resources/film-collection/a-girl-is-a-fellow-here

The Center for Health Design
https://www.healthdesign.org/

The Center for Health Design Touchstone Awards
https://www.healthdesign.org/certification-outreach/awards-recognition/touchstone-awards

Institute for Patient-Centered Design
http://www.patientcentereddesign.org/

Ball State University — Estopinal College of Architecture and Planning
https://www.bsu.edu/academics/collegesanddepartments/cap

LECOM Medical Center and Behavioral Health Pavilion, formerly Millcreek Community Hospital
https://lecomhealth.com/location/lecom-medical-center-and-behavioral-health-pavilion/

Lehigh Valley Hospital–Cedar Crest
https://www.lvhn.org/locations/lehigh-valley-hospital-cedar-crest

MEMORABLE GUEST QUOTES
"We can do better. I know we can do better."

"It started out more holistically with, 'Is there a better way to deliver projects?' The notion of integrated project delivery—Marshall was all about that in 1950."

"Marshall was always concerned about the efficiency of the process and the cost at the end of the day. That being said, he was also all about quality and maintaining quality."

"It has to be right. It has to serve a purpose. It has to be sustainable."

"It's data-informed design."

"We spend all of our time as designers… trying to mitigate the challenges that such a large footprint starts to create for the humans inside of this footprint."

"Frank was all about connecting his architecture to the space and place and to nature."

"We're human creatures. We want to see if it's sunny outside or raining."

"It's a constant dialogue, Cheryl, and it takes a multidisciplinary team, in my opinion, to do it well."

"Can we design a small enough hospital where the intimacy of care matches the human scale, more residential than institutional?"

"Be mindful of the scale of what we're proposing and keep it human-centered."

"It is the client's project. It is the stakeholders, the users of that project that matter."

"At the end of the day, it's about the people that are using that project. They have to matter most."

CONNECT WITH MIKE
Mike McKay, AIA, ACHE, EDAC, LEED AP
Healthcare Market Sector Leader, ERDMAN
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelmckayaia/
Email: mmckay@erdman.com
ERDMAN: https://www.erdman.com/
OUR SPONSOR
This podcast is sponsored by Porcelanosa. Download the latest issue of Lifestyle magazine to see award winning architecture, interior design and wellness projects worldwide. Just go to Porcelanosa.com and search Lifestyle magazine to access the complete library…. and be inspired.

OUR INDUSTRY PARTNERS
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers

The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design

Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.
Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/
FEATURED PRODUCT
Porcelanosa are at the forefront of sustainable manufacturing – clients not only expect this of their suppliers but are increasingly asking to see the receipts.
Let's unpack this, did you know that hundreds of preeminent members of The American Institute of Architects –  The AIA – have signed the AIA Materials Pledge? The Pledge is aligned with the Mindful Materials Common Materials Framework – the CMF. This is just one, very impressive example of how the movement to support decision making for building product selection has reached new highs. We can see these explained as 5 pillars of sustainability:
(The first) - Human Health: Focusing on avoiding hazardous substances and promoting well-being.

(Then) - Social Health & Equity: Addressing human rights and fair labor practices throughout the supply chain.

(The third) is Ecosystem Health: Supporting the regeneration of natural resources and habitats.

(This is followed by) Climate Health: Reducing and sequestering carbon emissions.

(And the fifth pillar) is The Circular Economy: Promoting a zero-waste future through design for resilience, adaptability, and reuse.

I mentioned the receipts -How do we track the progress of these principles and values? Without measurement, there's no clear path to improvement or accountability.
The Mindful Materials CMF maps a framework of over 650 sustainability factors across those five key areas.
A cornerstone of material health transparency is an Environmental Product Declaration EPD report. The best are independently verified for accuracy by third party certification bodies – a company cannot mark their own report cards. EPDs are highly technical documents containing scientific information on the embodied carbon used to manufacture products. I have just read and included here an EPD for a Porcelanosa Tile – there are upwards of 1000 data inputs to quantify its climate impact.
Porcelanosa offer the confidence and certainty of knowing that every tile, every slab of XTONE porcelain or KRION solid surface  has a Product Specific EPD – when architects and designers work with these materials they are making a robust decision to meet their sustainable design goals.
To learn more about how Porcelanosa help their customers design for resiliency, here is a link to their comprehensive Corporate Social Responsibility Report: https://www.porcelanosa.com/en/corporate-social-responsibility/.

"Everything is shifting at once — our care models, technology, AI, capital pressures, workforce dynamics." — Elizabeth Sullivan on HID2.0
In this episode of Healthcare Interior Design 2.0, Cheryl Janis sits down with Elizabeth Sullivan, Principal and Regional Co-Leader of Healthcare Northeast at HOK and adjunct professor at The New York School of Interior Design for a deeply thoughtful conversation about healthcare architecture, lived experience, mentorship, and the future of humane healthcare environments.
Elizabeth shares how she went from thinking healthcare architecture sounded "boring" to discovering that it is one of the most meaningful, complex, and human-centered areas of design. With experience spanning architectural practice, the owner side, teaching, and her own personal experiences as a patient, Elizabeth brings a rare and powerful lens to what healthcare spaces are — and what they still need to become.
Together, Cheryl and Elizabeth explore the next wave of healthcare design, the importance of flexibility and adaptability, the emotional weight of hospitals, the role of respite spaces, and why small details — even the chair in a patient room — can have an enormous impact.
In This Episode, Cheryl and Elizabeth Discuss
Elizabeth's unexpected path into healthcare architecture

Why healthcare design is far more creative, emotional, and complex than she first imagined

How her experiences as a patient shaped the way she thinks about space

The idea that healthcare architecture is on the edge of a major transformation

Why future healthcare environments must be more adaptable and resilient

How care models, AI, capital pressures, workforce dynamics, and sustainability are influencing design

The importance of respite spaces for patients, families, and staff

Why mentorship and apprenticeship still matter deeply in architecture

What designers often misunderstand about the owner side of healthcare

How curiosity can help young professionals find their place in healthcare design

Why empathy is not abstract — it shows up in the questions designers ask

The surprising importance of the chair in a patient room

KEY TAKEAWAYS
Healthcare design is deeply human. Elizabeth's early assumption that healthcare architecture would be overly technical changed when she realized the work is centered around people in some of life's most vulnerable moments.

We are not waiting for transformation — we are already inside it. Elizabeth describes healthcare architecture as being on the cusp of a major shift, driven by care models, technology, AI, capital pressures, workforce dynamics, sustainability, infrastructure, and community health.

Future healthcare environments need to behave less like static buildings and more like adaptable systems. One of Elizabeth's strongest points is that designers are no longer simply "building buildings." They are designing systems that must flex, evolve, and respond over time.

Long-term healthcare planning has to become more flexible and realistic. Elizabeth challenges the idea of rigid 20-year master plans, pointing instead toward shorter planning horizons, modular thinking, strategic adaptability, and future-ready infrastructure.

The owner's perspective changes everything. Her experience working on the owner side gave her a deeper understanding of capital constraints, operating budgets, shifting priorities, stakeholders, schedules, and why even strong projects can change direction.

Mentorship is not extra — it is part of the profession. Elizabeth speaks beautifully about the mentors who shaped her and why she now feels called to teach what students and young professionals cannot always learn from books alone.

Empathy shows up in the questions designers ask. For Elizabeth, empathetic design is not just a feeling; it is a process of listening carefully, asking people to walk through their day, understanding their pain points, and translating those insights into better environments.

Healthcare design has many entry points. For people drawn to the field, Elizabeth emphasizes that healthcare design can include planning, research, furniture design, workplace strategy, operations, management, and more — not only traditional architecture.

The most humane healthcare environments create comfort, safety, and emotional relief. Elizabeth imagines future healthcare spaces that help take people's minds away from the stress of being somewhere they may not have chosen to be.

Small details carry enormous weight. Her reflection on "the chair" is a perfect example: a seemingly minor design choice can affect patients, family members, caregivers, clinicians, and staff for hours at a time.

RESOURCES MENTIONED
 
New York School of Interior Design — Master of Professional Studies in Design of Healthcare Environments
A graduate program focused on healthcare interiors, including research methods, healthcare history and theory, environmental and behavioral studies, applied design, sustainable design, and lighting research.

Healthcare Architecture in an Era of Radical Transformation — Stephen Verderber and David J. Fine
The book connected to the "waves of healthcare architecture" idea discussed in the episode. It was published by Yale University Press in 2000 and focuses on hospital architecture and healthcare facility design.

Healthcare Architecture in an Era of Radical Transformation — Open Library listing
A clean bibliographic listing with ISBN information, publisher details, and publication date.

Innovations in Hospital Architecture — Stephen Verderber
A related Verderber resource on sustainable hospital architecture, carbon-neutral care settings, future planning, and contemporary hospital design.

Ana Pinto-Alexander — HKS Profile
Cheryl references Ana Pinto-Alexander during the conversation. HKS lists her as Principal Emeritus and notes her extensive healthcare and pediatric design work.

Healthcare Interior Design 2.0 Podcast Episode 1 — Ana Pinto-Alexander
The earlier episode Cheryl references, centered on empathy, healthcare interiors, and Ana's personal connection to healthcare design.

Montefiore Einstein — Our History
 Background on Montefiore Einstein, including its relationship with Albert Einstein College of Medicine and the 2015 agreement that transferred operational and financial responsibility for the College of Medicine to Montefiore.

MEMORABLE GUEST QUOTES
"What I didn't realize is that healthcare is deeply human. It's not just about buildings. It's about the people and the most vulnerable moments."

"That's a very common connection for people who decide to go into healthcare — it becomes deeply personal."

"Those experiences at 10 years old shape the way that I think about how we create space today."

"I believe that we are really on the cusp of transformation."

"That experience really shifted my perspective from this technical thing to something more meaningful. And once that clicked, there was no going back."

"We're not just building buildings anymore. We're designing systems that need to adapt over time."

"The day a hospital opens, it's outdated."

"The respite spaces — places for people to go and have a moment — are really critical in healthcare."

"Those moments are really important for people's well-being."

"Architecture is apprenticeship."

"I am here for you."

"You don't understand it's a different set of pressures."

"I would encourage anybody who is in architecture to work on the owner's side and really have a better understanding of why we do what we do."

"Walk me through a day in the life — and they will often talk about what their challenges are. It's up to us to help them find the solutions."

"I think the level of innovation and thoughtfulness that's happening right now… that's what I'm hopeful for."

"Inside these healthcare environments, feeling comfortable, feeling safe… to have an environment that sort of takes you away from a place you may not have a choice to be in."

"The chairs are really important. They really are."

Guest Bio
Elizabeth Sullivan is Principal and Regional Co-Leader of Healthcare Northeast at HOK. Her work bridges architectural practice, healthcare ownership, strategic planning, mentorship, and education. With experience on both the design and owner sides of healthcare environments, Elizabeth brings a uniquely holistic perspective to the future of healthcare architecture.
She also serves as adjunct professor at the New York School of Interior Design, helping students and emerging professionals understand the business, operational, and human realities behind healthcare design.
Connect with Elizabeth Sullivan
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-sullivan-36947313/
Email: elizabeth.sullivan@hok.com
Our Industry Partners
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers

The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design

Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.
Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/
------------
FEATURED PRODUCT
Porcelanosa are at the forefront of sustainable manufacturing – clients not only expect this of their suppliers but are increasingly asking to see the receipts.
Let's unpack this, did you know that hundreds of preeminent members of The American Institute of Architects –  The AIA – have signed the AIA Materials Pledge? The Pledge is aligned with the Mindful Materials Common Materials Framework – the CMF. This is just one, very impressive example of how the movement to support decision making for building product selection has reached new highs. We can see these explained as 5 pillars of sustainability:
(The first) - Human Health: Focusing on avoiding hazardous substances and promoting well-being.

(Then) - Social Health & Equity: Addressing human rights and fair labor practices throughout the supply chain.

(The third) is Ecosystem Health: Supporting the regeneration of natural resources and habitats.

(This is followed by) Climate Health: Reducing and sequestering carbon emissions.

(And the fifth pillar) is The Circular Economy: Promoting a zero-waste future through design for resilience, adaptability, and reuse.

I mentioned the receipts -How do we track the progress of these principles and values? Without measurement, there's no clear path to improvement or accountability.
The Mindful Materials CMF maps a framework of over 650 sustainability factors across those five key areas.
A cornerstone of material health transparency is an Environmental Product Declaration EPD report. The best are independently verified for accuracy by third party certification bodies – a company cannot mark their own report cards. EPDs are highly technical documents containing scientific information on the embodied carbon used to manufacture products. I have just read and included here an EPD for a Porcelanosa Tile – there are upwards of 1000 data inputs to quantify its climate impact.
Porcelanosa offer the confidence and certainty of knowing that every tile, every slab of XTONE porcelain or KRION solid surface  has a Product Specific EPD – when architects and designers work with these materials they are making a robust decision to meet their sustainable design goals.
To learn more about how Porcelanosa help their customers design for resiliency, here is a link to their comprehensive Corporate Social Responsibility Report: https://www.porcelanosa.com/en/corporate-social-responsibility/

"Flexibility became our currency during COVID." –Brea E. Elles on HID2.0
In today's episode, Cheryl sits down virtually with Brea E. Elles, Healthcare Design & Construction Leader. Together they pull back the curtain on what owner-side leadership really looks like when capital planning meets real-world constraints: staffing shortages, reimbursement uncertainty, supply chain, and the relentless need to keep care moving.
You'll hear her practical frameworks for designing "for flow," why standardization can reduce cognitive stress for clinicians, and how teams can protect performance when budgets tighten. And if you love the details, Brea goes delightfully nerdy on the behind-the-scenes decisions that make healthcare millwork and furniture succeed (or fail) over time — from seams and water intrusion to integrated sinks, chemical resistance, and specs written for performance.
In this episode, we cover:
What it actually means to sit at the intersection of finance + operations + design + construction—and why alignment is the job.

The teaching mindset that carries into project leadership: if you can't explain why, you don't fully understand the decision.

Lean healthcare design in one phrase: design for flow—patient flow, staff flow, equipment flow, information flow.

A blunt truth: "Every unnecessary step is a cost"… and inefficient adjacencies compound into burnout.

How policy/funding uncertainty (including the "Big Beautiful Bill") shows up as more disciplined revenue assumptions, phasing, and scope restraint.

Why patient experience isn't just the lobby: staff experience drives patient experience through workflow and physical demands.

The post-COVID shift that won't go away: conversion speed + flexibility as core performance.

"Standardization is resilience": how standards reduce cognitive load and keep clinicians focused on care.

Rural vs urban: durability, simplified infrastructure, and designing for a community asset that carries generational weight.

Plyhouse and the millwork "nerd-out": infection prevention through seam minimization, integral sinks, edge protection, chemical resistance—and specs written for performance.

Memorable quotes from Brea
"I sit at the intersection of finance, operations, design, and construction."

"I align people who think differently."

"If you can't explain why a decision matters, you don't fully understand it."

"Every unnecessary step is a cost. Every inefficient adjacency becomes burnout over time."

"You're designing for the person that's moving through the space, not the person photographing it."

"Standardization is resilience."

"In urban systems, you manage complexity. In rural systems, you're managing vulnerability."

"I saw a disconnect between specification and reality."

"Specs should be designed for performance, not just by material type."

"When you think about surfaces, you want to minimize your seams."

"In order to have patient experience… it's also staff experience."

"Design for flow… not just patient flow, but staff flow, equipment flow, information flow."

Links & ways to connect
Email: brea@plyhaus.com
Plyhouse: https://plyhaus.com
Brea on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/brea-e-elles-58776aa1/
If you liked this episode…
Please share it with a nurse, designer, architect, engineer, or administrator who cares about building healthcare environments that feel more human—and more kind.
Our Industry Partners
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers

The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design

Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.
Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/
------------
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org
FEATURED PRODUCT
Porcelanosa are at the forefront of sustainable manufacturing – clients not only expect this of their suppliers but are increasingly asking to see the receipts.
 
Let's unpack this, did you know that hundreds of preeminent members of The American Institute of Architects –  The AIA – have signed the AIA Materials Pledge? The Pledge is aligned with the Mindful Materials Common Materials Framework – the CMF. This is just one, very impressive example of how the movement to support decision making for building product selection has reached new highs. We can see these explained as 5 pillars of sustainability:
(The first) - Human Health: Focusing on avoiding hazardous substances and promoting well-being.

(Then) - Social Health & Equity: Addressing human rights and fair labor practices throughout the supply chain.

(The third) is Ecosystem Health: Supporting the regeneration of natural resources and habitats.

(This is followed by) Climate Health: Reducing and sequestering carbon emissions.

(And the fifth pillar) is The Circular Economy: Promoting a zero-waste future through design for resilience, adaptability, and reuse.

I mentioned the receipts -How do we track the progress of these principles and values? Without measurement, there's no clear path to improvement or accountability.
The Mindful Materials CMF maps a framework of over 650 sustainability factors across those five key areas.
A cornerstone of material health transparency is an Environmental Product Declaration EPD report. The best are independently verified for accuracy by third party certification bodies – a company cannot mark their own report cards. EPDs are highly technical documents containing scientific information on the embodied carbon used to manufacture products. I have just read and included here an EPD for a Porcelanosa Tile – there are upwards of 1000 data inputs to quantify its climate impact.
Porcelanosa offer the confidence and certainty of knowing that every tile, every slab of XTONE porcelain or KRION solid surface  has a Product Specific EPD – when architects and designers work with these materials they are making a robust decision to meet their sustainable design goals.
To learn more about how Porcelanosa help their customers design for resiliency, here is a link to their comprehensive Corporate Social Responsibility Report: https://www.porcelanosa.com/en/corporate-social-responsibility/.

"The best way to think of it is like a do not use ingredient list, similar to checking a food label — but for buildings." — Susan Suhar on HID2.0  
Today on the podcast, Cheryl sits down with Susan Suhar — Design Principal- Interiors and Associate Vice President at HDR Architecture in Los Angeles — to talk about what's changing (and what's timeless) in healthcare design.
With 25+ years designing award-winning environments across healthcare, workplace, and life science, Susan brings a rare mix of creative vision and real-world rigor — designing for the whole ecosystem: patients and families, yes, but also the staff doing the caring every single day.
Susan helps lead the vision and growth of HDR's LA interiors practice, and she's been deeply involved in major healthcare work including Cedars-Sinai's Marina del Rey Hospital and the UCSF Helen Diller Hospital project in San Francisco (part of a collaborative design team).
In this conversation, Susan and Cheryl dig into the shifts shaping healthcare interiors right now — from behavioral health and outpatient growth, to sustainability, staff respite spaces, and why empathy still belongs at the center of every healing environment.
WHAT WE COVER
Why healthcare interiors serve "one of the broadest ranges of humans in human emotion" — all at once
Susan's origin story: how universal design shaped her purpose as a designer
What's unique about designing healthcare in California (and specifically Los Angeles)
Key shifts shaping healthcare design today:
-behavioral health
-the evolving patient + staff experience
-outpatient growth and the rise of same-day procedures
How shorter schedules are changing design + documentation — and where AI fits (supporting, not replacing)
Cedars-Sinai Marina del Rey Hospital: designing a community hospital that feels sophisticated, elegant, and not like a hospital
The "sea change for healing" concept: waves, journey, light-on-water (and an unforgettable chapel + meditation patio)
UCSF Helen Diller Hospital: iconic architecture, fog-response interiors, and major investments in respite, sustainability, and health
"Red list free" in plain language — and why it matters in a hospital
Why staff spaces are not optional: sleep rooms, respite, and protecting caregiver wellbeing
Susan's guiding principle: empathy, and the questions that make design better
KEY TAKEAWAYS
Design empathy isn't a vibe — it's a practice. It shows up in how we listen, what we prioritize, and what we protect in the program.
Staff experience is patient experience. If we don't design for caregiver wellbeing, we quietly erode care quality.
Sustainability + health transparency are converging. Materials aren't just about durability and aesthetics anymore — they're about human impact, too.
The pace is changing. Faster schedules are pressuring teams to get more efficient without losing the design story or the details.
RESOURCED MENTIONED
PROJECTS + IMAGES
• HDR – Cedars-Sinai Marina del Rey Hospital (project page)
https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/cedars-sinai-marina-del-rey-hospital
• HDR – UCSF Health Helen Diller Hospital (project page)
https://www.hdrinc.com/portfolio/ucsf-health-helen-diller-hospital
• UCSF Real Estate – Helen Diller Hospital project overview
https://realestate.ucsf.edu/projects/ucsf-health-helen-diller-hospital-hdh
• Herzog & de Meuron – UCSF Health Helen Diller Hospital (project page)
https://www.herzogdemeuron.com/projects/547-ucsf-helen-diller-medical-center-2/
CEDARS-SINAI UPDATES
• Cedars-Sinai Newsroom – "New Cedars-Sinai Marina del Rey Hospital Rises" (includes video/update)
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/new-cedars-sinai-marina-del-rey-hospital-rises/
• Cedars-Sinai Newsroom – "Construction Begins for New Cedars-Sinai Marina del Rey Hospital"
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/construction-begins-for-new-cedars-sinai-marina-del-rey-hospital/
• Cedars-Sinai – "An Upgrade to Medicine in the Marina" (construction progress story)
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/stories-and-insights/advancing-our-mission/an-upgrade-to-medicine-in-the-marina
HDR SITE / PORTFOLIO SEARCH (as mentioned on the episode)
• HDR homepage
https://www.hdrinc.com/
• HDR portfolio (search/browse)
https://go.hdrinc.com/portfolio
SUSTAINABILITY + MATERIAL HEALTH TERMS (RED LIST / EPD / HPD)
• ILFI – Red List (Living Building Challenge)
https://living-future.org/red-list/
• ILFI – Living Building Challenge overview
https://living-future.org/lbc/
• EPD International – International EPD System (what an EPD is / program info)
https://www.environdec.com/about-us/international-epd-system
• HPD Collaborative (what an HPD is / material health disclosure)
https://www.hpd-collaborative.org/
CALIFORNIA HEALTHCARE FACILITY OVERSIGHT (OSHPD / now HCAI)
• HCAI – OSHPD became HCAI (official announcement)
https://hcai.ca.gov/oshpd-becomes-the-department-of-health-care-access-and-information/
• HCAI – Building Safety (healthcare facilities construction oversight)
https://hcai.ca.gov/facilities/building-safety/
CREDENTIALS REFERENCED
• IIDA
https://iida.org/
• NCIDQ / CIDQ
https://www.cidq.org/
• LEED (USGBC)
https://www.usgbc.org/leed
• WELL (IWBI)
https://www.wellcertified.com/
• Fitwel
https://www.fitwel.org/
MEMORABLE GUEST QUOTES
"We're creating an interior experience that is serving probably one of the broadest ranges of humans in human emotion simultaneously under one roof."
"Sometimes… I take the approach as a design therapist."
"You have to realize you can't make everyone happy with one solution — but if you can get the majority there, that's a success."
"It's not just a nice to do. There is purpose — it's to reduce the anxiety."
"If you can design healthcare in California, you can design pretty much anywhere."
"The first thing we wanted folks to feel when they walked in was that they were not in a hospital."
"The story of the concept was a sea change for healing."
"It was inspired by the hull of a boat, a wave itself, and the sunlight that dances and sparkles on top of water."
"The value in care to the patient begins with the value in care of the staff."
"The guiding principle is putting yourself in the environment… I would say it has to be empathy."
"You need to ask questions: how would people like it to be better or different? Where are the friction points?"
"Patient interviews, patient surveys, community engagement and input — those are critical to really having a successful healing environment."
GUEST
Susan Suhar — Design Principal for Interiors + Associate Vice President, HDR Architecture (Los Angeles).
CONNECT 
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/susan-salvati-suhar-8811805
Email: susan.suhar@hdrinc.com
OUR INDUSTRY PARTNERS

The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
-The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers
-The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design
Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.

Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/.
------------
FEATURED PRODUCT
Porcelanosa are at the forefront of sustainable manufacturing – clients not only expect this of their suppliers but are increasingly asking to see the receipts.
Let's unpack this, did you know that hundreds of preeminent members of The American Institute of Architects –  The AIA – have signed the AIA Materials Pledge? The Pledge is aligned with the Mindful Materials Common Materials Framework – the CMF. This is just one, very impressive example of how the movement to support decision making for building product selection has reached new highs. We can see these explained as 5 pillars of sustainability:

(The first) - Human Health: Focusing on avoiding hazardous substances and promoting well-being.
(Then) - Social Health & Equity: Addressing human rights and fair labor practices throughout the supply chain.
(The third) is Ecosystem Health: Supporting the regeneration of natural resources and habitats.
(This is followed by) Climate Health: Reducing and sequestering carbon emissions.
(And the fifth pillar) is The Circular Economy: Promoting a zero-waste future through design for resilience, adaptability, and reuse.

I mentioned the receipts -How do we track the progress of these principles and values? Without measurement, there's no clear path to improvement or accountability.
The Mindful Materials CMF maps a framework of over 650 sustainability factors across those five key areas.
A cornerstone of material health transparency is an Environmental Product Declaration EPD report. The best are independently verified for accuracy by third party certification bodies – a company cannot mark their own report cards. EPDs are highly technical documents containing scientific information on the embodied carbon used to manufacture products. I have just read and included here an EPD for a Porcelanosa Tile – there are upwards of 1000 data inputs to quantify its climate impact.
Porcelanosa offer the confidence and certainty of knowing that every tile, every slab of XTONE porcelain or KRION solid surface  has a Product Specific EPD – when architects and designers work with these materials they are making a robust decision to meet their sustainable design goals.
To learn more about how Porcelanosa help their customers design for resiliency, here is a link to their comprehensive Corporate Social Responsibility Report: https://www.porcelanosa.com/en/corporate-social-responsibility/

"Art is underutilized as a tool. We should ask: what's the intent behind this piece? Why this piece… and what is this going to do for patients?" —Ghina Itani on HID2.0
What if "beautiful" isn't just a nice-to-have — but a clinical tool?
In this episode, Cheryl sits down with Ghina Itani, MBA, CHID, NCIDQ, ASID, EDAC — founder and principal designer of Itani Design Concepts (woman-owned, founded in 2007). Together they unpack how healthcare design decisions ripple outward: influencing everything from patient stress to staff retention, wayfinding, and even workplace culture.
You'll hear Ghina's origin story — including the moment she rediscovered her portfolio in a box during her "little ones" season and realized her career was still waiting — and how one early hospital project helped raise expectations for what healthcare spaces could feel like.
Then we will dive deep into neuroaesthetics (the brain's response to beauty and environment), why designers must avoid "paint-by-numbers" claims, and how color research can be shared without overpromising. Along the way, Ghina breaks down the famous Baker–Miller Pink story and what it teaches us about context, demographics, and why no single color is a universal prescription.
Finally, you'll explore art as care — including the idea of museum prescriptions — and why art is often underutilized as a real tool for healing and connection (not just decoration.)
What you'll hear in this episode
A powerful origin story about timing, identity, and returning to ambition

Why healthcare design is never just aesthetic — it's operational

Neuroaesthetics: what it is, why it matters, and what it isn't

Color guidelines: where they help… and where they fall apart

The "pink prison" story — and what it teaches about context over clichés

How designers can present research logically (especially with clinical leaders)

Art as a care intervention, not an accessory — including museum prescription programs

Why instinct still belongs in evidence-based work

Key Takeaways
Design has reach. A chair choice can affect not just comfort — but operations, loyalty, and even patient flow.

Color isn't a magic button. It's about dose, placement, scale, lighting, and culture — not "blue = calm."

Neuroaesthetics is a lens, not a guarantee. Designers can use research to guide decisions without promising outcomes.

Inclusion builds trust. Bringing staff and stakeholders into the design process reduces resistance and improves buy-in.

Art can be therapeutic. When chosen with intent, it can open conversation, reduce stress, and support care experiences.

Memorable Quotes from Ghina Itani
"I kind of realized that… my career is waiting. It's right here."

"I took chances and I was gutsy."

"Even if I didn't have an idea what I'm doing at the time, I always think: I'm going to figure it out."

"When an opportunity comes, you have to seize it."

"If I think too much about something, I probably won't do it."

"Owning a business and being a designer are two different things."

"Now we're affecting operation."

"We cannot just say, this color gives you this outcome."

"Neuroaesthetics is misunderstood… it's not a prescription that you put it and solve the problem."

"Art is underutilized as a tool."

"We still think of it as pretty and not pretty… but we shouldn't think that way."

"We should think: what's the intent behind this piece? Why this piece… and what is this going to do for patients?"

"We are the product of our environment."

"We cannot make it ever robotic… it will always need the human."

"At the end of the day… I would trust what I think of it and what my instincts tell me as well."

Resources & Links
ITANIA DESIGN CONCEPTS
- Itani Design Concepts (website): https://itanidc.com/
- About Ghina Itani: https://itanidc.com/index.php/about/
- Contact page: https://itanidc.com/index.php/contact/
- Portfolio: https://itanidc.com/index.php/portfolio/
- ASID Design Finder listing (Ghina Itani): https://designfinder.asid.org/listing/ghina-itani
CREDENTIALS & ORGANIZATIONS MENTIONED
- AAHID (American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers): https://aahid.org/
- CHID credential info (AAHID): https://aahid.org/certification/
- EDAC (The Center for Health Design): https://www.healthdesign.org/certification-outreach/edac/
- The Center for Health Design (home): https://www.healthdesign.org/
- CIDQ / NCIDQ Certification: https://www.cidq.org/
 
TOPICS FROM THE EPISODE
- Neuroesthetics (overview): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroesthetics
- Baker–Miller pink (overview): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker%E2%80%93Miller_pink
- Museum prescriptions (Montreal Museum of Fine Arts): https://www.mbam.qc.ca/en/news/museum-prescriptions/
- Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics: https://neuroaesthetics.med.upenn.edu/
Connect with Ghina Itani
Email: gina@itanidc.com

Phone: 661-549-5886

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ghina-itani/

Our Industry Partners
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers

The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design

Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.
Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/
------------
The world is changing quickly. The Center for Health Design is committed to providing the healthcare design and senior living design industries with the latest research, best practices and innovations. The Center can help you solve today's biggest healthcare challenges and make a difference in care, safety, medical outcomes, and the bottom line.  Find out more at healthdesign.org.
Additional support for this podcast comes from our industry partners:
The American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers

The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design

Learn more about how to become a Certified Healthcare Interior Designer®  by visiting the American Academy of Healthcare Interior Designers at: https://aahid.org/.
Connect to a community interested in supporting clinician involvement in design and construction of the built environment by visiting The Nursing Institute for Healthcare Design at https://www.nursingihd.com/
FEATURED PRODUCT
Porcelanosa are at the forefront of sustainable manufacturing – clients not only expect this of their suppliers but are increasingly asking to see the receipts.
Let's unpack this, did you know that hundreds of preeminent members of The American Institute of Architects –  The AIA – have signed the AIA Materials Pledge? The Pledge is aligned with the Mindful Materials Common Materials Framework – the CMF. This is just one, very impressive example of how the movement to support decision making for building product selection has reached new highs. We can see these explained as 5 pillars of sustainability:
(The first) - Human Health: Focusing on avoiding hazardous substances and promoting well-being.

(Then) - Social Health & Equity: Addressing human rights and fair labor practices throughout the supply chain.

(The third) is Ecosystem Health: Supporting the regeneration of natural resources and habitats.

(This is followed by) Climate Health: Reducing and sequestering carbon emissions.

(And the fifth pillar) is The Circular Economy: Promoting a zero-waste future through design for resilience, adaptability, and reuse.

I mentioned the receipts -How do we track the progress of these principles and values? Without measurement, there's no clear path to improvement or accountability.
The Mindful Materials CMF maps a framework of over 650 sustainability factors across those five key areas.
 
A cornerstone of material health transparency is an Environmental Product Declaration EPD report. The best are independently verified for accuracy by third party certification bodies – a company cannot mark their own report cards. EPDs are highly technical documents containing scientific information on the embodied carbon used to manufacture products. I have just read and included here an EPD for a Porcelanosa Tile – there are upwards of 1000 data inputs to quantify its climate impact.
Porcelanosa offer the confidence and certainty of knowing that every tile, every slab of XTONE porcelain or KRION solid surface  has a Product Specific EPD – when architects and designers work with these materials they are making a robust decision to meet their sustainable design goals.
To learn more about how Porcelanosa help their customers design for resiliency, here is a link to their comprehensive Corporate Social Responsibility Report: https://www.porcelanosa.com/en/corporate-social-responsibility/